Also, everything Beff said about game changer rings true.

Wes, Kach, Kraken, Corise, Seth, Beff... and everyone else who has some idea that the statu quo can be maintained should damn well dispense with that attitude.

I have no intention, nor have I had any intention, of seeing things either return to the way they are, or even that TNO would remain top dog once the big battles are over with.

Cree Ar Broadcast: "AS'asdf'zxcv ad' asdf 'te'235 xcb'asd' gs asdf'nhgj' hj dfg 'asd' tara df45'adbbvxc' da 'ack!"

Imperials: "what?"

"Do you speak Cree'Ar?"

"Um, no Captain. What is Cree'Ar?"

"I... don't... know..."

Wow, if I had known that I was missing this I would have skipped all my lectures.

One question, if I may, concerning what Omnae has said: You mentioned civilians trying to escape Coruscant without going through the Corridor. With all the anomalies popping up, especially if they unload new Cree'Ar ships, is this potential suicide? Or is it actually feasible for a small transport (say, a heavily modified Suwantek) to escape without using the corridor? I ask hypothetically of course.

Some would...others wouldn't (unload enemy warships).


It is not inevitable suicide. It's more risky because it is like crossing the battlefield to get away...but it's possible. Some civies will get caught in the crossfire, others will not.

Especially if you are running and not seeking to engage the enemy, you should be fine...

Given that there's a brand new fleet that basically landed on our nose, you can probably slip away without being obliterated.

Objects and energy fields in realspace have effects on bodies in hyperspace. From the viewpoint of hyperspatial travellers the ordinary subluminal phenomena of the galaxy manifest themselves in a different form, just as a ship in hyperspace appears to have peculiar characteristics from the vantage of observers in realspace. The influence of realspace masses in hyperspace is known as the hyperspace mass-shadow effect. Collision with the shadow of a macroscopic object is catastrophic and usually fatal.

Subluminal objects can interact with objects in hyperspace. Therefore the reverse must also be true. The realspace object involved in a superluminal collision will also suffer destructive effects, though the detailed kinematics of superluminal collisions are not as straightforward or amenable to human intuition as interactions between ordinary bodies...


...Ships destroyed in hyperspace are never known to return their debris to realspace, and ships which experience accidents while jumping in or out tend to leave very little wreckage.

From Wes:

Om, I agree with you but for one point regarding that hyperspace article.

It mentioned that all things in realspace cast shadows into hyperspace - the bigger the object in realspace, the bigger the shadow. A ship would cast a small shadow. An object traveling in hyperspace would have little to no effect on a small object in realspace, at least according to my reading. However, a large object, such as a planet or star, would cast a large shadow and could destroy a ship in hyperspace.


Wes, I think of it like this (and it is a simplistic way to think about it). But when you know when you see a movie and they speed up the camera, everything seems to turn blurry. That is how things are perceived when you move as fast as the camera is showing. This analagy is not the best because if you were running that fast, you would imagine yourself moving out of the way of stuff. But, for this excercise, if you were moving as a SW ship in hyperspace, let's say you are moving as fast as a camera projects, with everything a blurr but you are on a set course.

In this way, a brick wall in your way will be perceived as blurry as everything else as fast as you are moving.


In the quoted article, it states:


Objects and energy fields in realspace have effects on bodies in hyperspace.


In my opinion, a brick wall is a brick wall no matter how it is perceived the faster you go. Just because you are moving faster does not mean it suddenly becomes a mist of gas that you can pass through.



From the viewpoint of hyperspatial travellers the ordinary subluminal phenomena of the galaxy manifest themselves in a different form, just as a ship in hyperspace appears to have peculiar characteristics from the vantage of observers in realspace.


Now, you, moving as fast as a camera and seeing the environment around you as a blur, just because they are blurry does not mean their attributes or characteristics change. Just as a person standing still as you zoom by may see you as a blurr or, may not see you at all, just evidence of your passage, but that does not mean you are also gaseous. Maybe full of gas but still solid state :p .


The influence of realspace masses in hyperspace is known as the hyperspace mass-shadow effect.

Instead of calling those things blurs, they are called mass shadows.


Collision with the shadow of a macroscopic object is catastrophic and usually fatal.


Here is where we differ, I think. What is a macroscopic object? You seem to interpret them as only being planetary bodies. I sort of view them as anything other than microscopic.


The definition of macroscopic (according to dictionary.com):

1. visible to the naked eye. Compare microscopic
2. pertaining to large units; comprehensive.


I can see that perhaps you could use the second definition to make your statement below:

Based on that article, I was not concerned with the Cree'Ar fleet but rather with the planet. Each Cree'Ar ship would have little to no effect on a ship in hyperspace, whereas a planet would.

Hence why I mentioned crashing into the planet.

You see, I believe that all things have a mass shadow (ships, fighters, space stations) but I do not believe the footprint of the mass shadow is enough to cause premature hyperspacial terminus (ie: for hyperdrive safeties to click). Otherwise, why would you need a ship specifically designed to interdict others?



So, my questions to you, then, is this:


How hard did you really think about this?

Do you want to set precident here?

Do want to say that ships going at lightspeed can pass through any object other than planets?


The implications, I think, are staggering:


This would mean there is no point to minefields if ships going lightspeed can simply pass through them.

This would mean there is no point to a defensive fleet that travels any distance outside a mass shadow or even to have pickets if an incoming fleet travelling at lightspeed can simply fly through them unhindered to strike at the planet proper.

Fighters can go through starbases to avoid incoming fire and to attack the opposite side if they make the jump then?

There would be no point to surrounding an enemy fleet if, all they have to do is jump to lightspeed to pass through the enclosure.

This would mean the Coalition defeat by TNO hands at Corellia could have been avoided if Dolash simply hyperspaced away since TNO had surrounded his fleet, yes?

Wouldn't that mean that all Han Solo had to do when the Falcon was in a tractor beam from the Death Star was make a jump to lightspeed and his ship would go through the Death Star undamaged?


Personally, I don't think it works the way but that is just my opinion.



What do you think?



***

Oh, and one other thing - the only thing that's actually being manipulated by a Sith is the pilot's station. The others are in a Force meld with that Sith, using their powers combined to strengthen his own senses so he can maneuver around obstacles.

The point was, you are using untrained people at the Helm of your flagship. Untrained at piloting an Imperial Capital vessel. Basically, what you seem to be saying is that you disconnected the communication between the Navigation Pit and the Helm Pit so that your one Sith can be Both navigator and Pilot and control the ship accordingly and the rest of the 11 Sith were "force sensors" and sent what they sensed via force-meld to the 1 Sith acting as pilot and navigator.


Does an Imperial Capital warship only needs one pilot? I always thought there were more and that there was an entire section on the bridge was dedicated to Helm control, Navigation, Weapons, Sensors, etc... but I could be wrong.

And yes, I forgot to mention that the slave rig was disabled - I'll disable it at the beginning of my next post. Besides, it was a jury-rigged slave circuit (which is why some ships are going to be lost on the way in) that linked only the piloting controls of the fleet.

If you wish to say that the controlling signal from the flag to the rest of the fleet cut off so the fleet can act independently, that is one thing. The circuitry is still there.

If you wish to say that the entire circuitry you jury-rigged has been ripped out of the computer banks of every ship in your fleet immediately upon arrival into realspace, then you really just set a precident that Imperial Capital vessels can easily be jury-rigged with slave circuitry and remote controlled.


There are consequences to actions, no?


You did not state that only the piloting controls were slave-rigged. The impression was that everything was given the fact that your fleet immediately opened fire as one unit with "thousands of turbolaser shots" heading for Cree Ar 5 seconds after their jump completed. 5 seconds? Did they blind fire?

The implication being that the ships were still slaved and it was more than just the piloting controls.


But, yes, the nature of the slave circuit jury rigging and if it is disabled or not is something you can mention in your next post. If not, it is reasonable to presume that the slave circuit is still functioning.


But the Genie is out of the bottle. Obviously, at least an Imperial Capital Warship's propulsion system can be jury-rigged with as a slave quite easily.

And (my assumptions working again - they kill me!) I assumed that as soon as they exited hyperspace the pilot station was again given over to the Tyrant's pilot.

The thing is, we can assume if a ship is flying, it is manned. We can assume you have pilots in your Helm Pit directing your ship. But when you make a point to do something out of the norm (ie: putting a Sith in the Helm Pit), it is reasonable to assume that situation continues until you say otherwise. We do not (or should not) presume to undo what you made a point to state.



You see, Ahnk, myself and others cannot respond to what you intend to do, we can only respond to what you've done. We can only respond to what you've written.


What you've written is: The Sith are piloting your flagship, your fleet is slaved to your flagship, the Sith are in meditation mode after having been asked if they can do 'battle meditation'.


Which invariably means the minds of your men in your fleet are about to be dominated by the will of the Sith but since you have not stated the battle meditation has started, that has not happened yet.

But none of this "the Sith begin battle-meditation but are as gentle as kittens to Wes Vos's beloved SS". If the Sith are not dominating those minds then it is not Sith Battle Meditation. That would also mean your Sith are running the battle.


You specifically mentioned using the Sith Technique and every battle-meditation used by a Sith was with them leading and directing the battle, not deferring to some non-force user for instructions.

Of course, if you find an instance of a Sith deferring to another then I shall retract my statement and opinion and bow to your superior point.

And, for future posts, I don't mind saying you have to exit hyperspace to change vectors. However, in the interest of storyline purposes, since it's already written and done and since I relied on my interpretation of those articles and books for the idea of steering in hyperspace, can we let that one post stand (grandfather it in, so to speak)? Otherwise, the whole point of the last post is nil, since the entire assumption (which, if what you say is true, the naval officers on board the Tyrant would have told Wes was a problem, logically) was that you could steer in hyperspace.

Well, you do not have to say you've changed vectors when you go from planet to planet. The anomalies were designed to have you stop, change vector, jump, stop, change vector... and if you did that, the Cree Ar would see you coming and be ready to overwhelm you when you finally arrived at your destination.


The jump from just outside the system to your location would only be one jump without the obstacles so, by removing your safeties, you made your destination in one jump. It just cost you because you removed the safeties.


The whole point of the last post is not nil. Perhaps the point of your OOC strategy is now nil but not your post.


Whether you can steer in hyperspace or not is immaterial. You jumped with the safeties off and I am sure your naval officers would have told the General of the dangers in that. That did not stop him.

When you jury-rigged your ships with slave circuits, I am sure your naval officers also warned the General of the dangers and that some ships could be lost (which you OOC said there were given the jury-rigging) and the General still went ahead.


I am sure the General's XO would have warned his General of the dangers of having the fleet's mind dominated by Sith of unknown character (If the General trusts Skygge, does that trust extend to her apprentices given the backstabbing nature of the Sith? Are they reliable? Have these Sith ever been in battle performing a battle-meditation?) It's like putting a recruit at a critical station trusting him to perform like a pro because he went to school and read how to do it in a book. There is a difference in knowing the fundamentals of thing, being trained to know how to perform it and actually doing it under live-fire, and we all know the dangers of that, yes?

So, I am sure the General would have been warned but he still went ahead and promoted the Sith to 'Captain of the Pilot Pit' and let them do their force-meld. Will he let it go as far as a full battle meditation? That would be interesting to see.

Likewise, then, we can say that your naval officers would have also warned the General about the ability to steer a ship in lightspeed and the danger of running into ships you cannot avoid.

Perhaps the Sith said he could do it since Sith are stuck-up nimrods but found, SINCE HE'D NEVER FLOWN AN IMPERIAL CAPITAL WARSHIP that 'hey, the ship cannot do that'!


We assume that secondary officers or those officers in the know are going to warn, suggest, whatever... but the thing is, the General, the Grand Admiral, the Regent, or Emperor is always going to do what they want to do because they believe or think a certain way.


It either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, that is something the character lives with.

Kaine was defeated that way, Telan had a defeat, Zell was defeated that way and Hyfe is missing because he believed/thought a certain way. This applies to anyone who has suffered defeat.


Does this happen to everyone else but General Wes Vos?



In any event, it is presumed the SS took losses with these different decisions but it is also presumed that the General felt them acceptable. Or, if he doesn't, he's learned something and will now try to extricate himself from the position he is in.



The nature of that position I leave to you and Ahnk.

1. Alright, I can see how that makes sense. It wasn't my interpretation of the article, but I can understand the precedent setting thing. It'd be nice to have it grandfathered in, but I can understand why it wouldn't be, and that will be taken into account in my next post.

As to your questions:
- Actually, I've spent a few weeks thinking about this and trying to come up with how something like this would work.
- Again, precedentally, I would agree.
- Here's where we disagree. I would put the objects on a sliding scale. A large fleet (which, I admit, I thought the Cree'Ar fleet to be more spread out as well, therefore casting less of a shadow) such as the one at Corellia would cast a larger shadow. A single ship would cast a small one. A Death Star would cast one larger than a ship. The smaller the shadow, the less chance (1) that the object would be hit at all and (2) the collision would be fatal or even noticeable by either object. As for minefields, there is a reason that minefields are, canonically, usually combined with interdictors or interdiction mines, or that hyperspace is mined (Courtship of Princess Leia, Hapan mines). A bunch of mines grouped closely together could cast a shadow large enough to pull a ship out of hyperspace or to pull it apart. I guess when I thought "shadow" or "mass shadow" I was thinking gravitic shadow - that gravity was the way in which realspace objects interacted with hyperspace objects. As such, the gravitic force exerted by a large ship might or might not be enough to tear a ship apart. The force of a planet or even a Death Star would (hence the need for a nav computer to discover that sort of shadow). However, a collision with a realspace starfighter would not have an effect. A tractor beam, as I understand it, is simply a type of gravitic manipulation or magnetic force - had Han attempted a blind jump to lightspeed, the attempted acceleration to hyperspace would have ripped the Falcon apart. The reason for the defensive fleet to travel outside the mass shadow of the planet is (1) Interdiction, (2) surprise by jumping back in on top of the attacking fleet, and (3) the fact that a ship approaching a system must exit hyperspace before it actually reaches its destination in order to slow down to normal speeds - even an accelleration compensater can't handle going from 186,000+ miles per second to 10 MGLT instantly. Imagine the chaos in such a situation! The point of a picket, then, is detection and/or interdiction. That's why an interdiction cruiser is so valuable - it's the only ship that can cast a mass shadow into hyperspace and realspace and pull a ship out of hyperspace.


As for the Sith, my next post will take that into account and fix the misunderstandings (there will be a small bit of retcon, but nothing that affects anything already posted).

From what I've read, it seems that a warship can get by with one pilot actually, so long as the other sections are doing their jobs. By "pilot" I mean the guy who actually steers the ship - and if it's a Force user who is at least marginally familiar with the ship, then it's possible. Yuagith, having been attached to the SS for a year, is at least marginally familiar with the controls, though as my next post will show, not familiar enough.

Regarding the slave circuit, the jury-rig was done by certified technicians from the hidden shipyards at Thoraza (I did mention that, though not exactly where they were from). I'll address that in my next post as well.

As for the firing, it wasn't blind per se - but for gunners who are prepped to fire, five seconds is enough to acquire a target (especially if the Cree'Ar fleet is as large as Ahnk claims) and fire at it. Not concentrated fire, of course, but Wes didn't expect to need concentrated fire, expecting that he'd be jumping in on the unprotected aft of an enemy formation. As my next post will show, he misjudged things a bit, but not completely fatally.

One example of the Sith not controlling the tactics is Thrawn and C'baoth. Yes, I know C'baoth was insane and that Thrawn had ysalimari. But Skygge has been reshaping the Sith to be team players over the past year - not backstabbing. She's integrating some Jedi training into the Sith training as well. And the Sith are about spent after the hyperspace jump - all but Yuagith - and aren't going to be controlling much of anything anytime soon (again, next post).

As far as the warnings go, Wes has always been willing to listen and open to suggestions and corrections from those immediately under him if something is their area of expertise. However, I'll work with it. It won't be the absolute disaster you indicated, but he will lose something like a fourth of his fleet.

Thanks for the input - it has cleared up a lot.

Furthermore, speaking as a member of the Force Council, I wish to bring up and discuss the issue if Sith Battle Meditation and, later, discuss Skygge, her rank and what others (including members of the Force Council) have percived as violations, if not out right abuse, of that characters capabilities.

I would have preferred to discuss this on its own, but since it seems to have played a key role in affecting this part of Cataclysm, however; here we are.



1.

"In the old days, the Dark Lords of the Sith built meditation chambers in their warships. In the heat of battle, they would seal themselves in the chambers...and direct powerful visualizations upon the conflict that raged all around them."
―Odan Urr to Nomi Sunrider on Sith battle meditation

Subject one; the words "Dark Lords of the Sith..."

Skygge is not a Sith Lord, in fact despite my digging I cannot find nor confirm her promotion to from Apprentice to Knight, however; given the work you have done with her, her time in the galaxy, and the sheer volume of material you've written I am willing to conceed the rank, informally, of Knight for the sake of these discussions.

The rank of Darth Skygge is less important to these disucssions then is the rank of these dozen 'NPC' Sith Apprentices. And, on your own statements, I contest the pertinance and functionality of any Sith Battle Meditation (the equivalent of a Star Trek mind-meld or Borg collective) and it's use in Cataclysm.

Personally, I believe that such an expenditure would fail and have disasterous results. I would think that the Aprrentices in question, as demonstrated time and again when one taps the dark side of the force, would be utterly consumed by their efforts and so the idea of their being "mostly useless" afterwards is bullshit. Furthermore, what of those subjects upon whom they are impressing their will? I would imagine the outcome being less then par.

Subject two;

"built meditation chambers in their warships. In the heat of battle, they would seal themselves in the chambers..."

Yours are Imperial ships of the line which, to the best of my study, tend not to include the aforementioned chambers. The implication is that even Sith Lords, Dark Lords of the Sith even, required these chambers to 'focus' their energies...

Another oversight on behalf of Skygge and the Apprentices. Imagine I put a thousand pound weight on a bench, ask you to press it, and while you're doing that complete a series of complex mathematical questions? I don't think you're going to do either one effectively... not without some serious steroids. The "steroids" could be compared to the dark side of the force. And as we all know the use of steroids takes its toll on the body...

Precedent - Homecoming

Silk, involved in the heat of combat, used a Battle Meditation. This was contentious at best and something I had to defend in private conversations with Vance and others. But even Silk was a Sith Lord at the time. Should he have been allowed to pull it off? Probably not. As a compromise, however; those members involved in Homecoming of sufficent rank agreed to allow certian abuses of the dark side which in effect 'balanced' that abuse. To which end, where do we find the balance here, in Cataclysm?




Beffs says, "Rules suck!"

And I agree with myself. The force is, in my opinion an unquantifiable value. But that's not fair, nor accurate. It's fine for the purposes of a self driven story, one in which your actions are not going to have a result which affects other characters/assets/plots.

Even I agree that when it comes to, ahem, 'combative role-play' there have to be clearly defined parameters as to what one can and cannot do depending on situational variables (rank, for instance).

And so...

Beff: While I can understand you hate of rules or limitations, I think because of the potential for a Force User to push those limits, a clear guide is needed to stop them from stepping over the line; an example of this could be Maim, or more recently Darth Skygge, each of who were clearly doing things beyond their rank level at times.
-Darth Vicirus

Which can be found here... Although you may be unable to view said thread as it is located in the Force Council forum.

And from the same thread...

Force Jump

The ability to leap farther than what is typically possible for a standard being. The Force is used to help strengthen a being’s propulsive muscles, while also calling on the Force for a simplistic telekinetic lift, which allows for leaps and jumps of varying degrees.

- Untrained Rank: For an untrained Force User, this ability is limited to leaps or jumps no larger than four metres in any direction.

- Padawan/Apprentice Rank: For a Padawan/Apprentice, this ability is limited to leaps or jumps no larger than eight metres in any direction; also, due to the trained nature of the being, a Padawan/Apprentice would have more direction control, allowing for more accurate leaping and landing.

- Knight Rank: For a Jedi/Sith Knight, this ability is limited to leaps or jumps no larger than twelve metres in any direction; also, due to the advanced trained nature of the being, a Knight would have even more control, allowing for potential multiple rebound leaps and landings.

- Master Rank: For a Jedi/Sith Master, this ability is practically unlimited, though leaps and jumps tend to have a limitation of up to twenty metres in any direction; also, due to the highly advanced trained nature of the being, a Master’s movements border on Force Flight, which is a longer, much more controlled form of Force Jump.

This is why Vance and others worked to create and post guidelines which determine what a character, given rank, should be allowed to do or disqualified from. These resources were available to all... and as the Force User Rules & FAQ are so vague we created the Force Wiki which, though it is now broken, provided at one time a very comprehensive outline.

Just because it is not up now does not preclude a member from asking...


Anyway...

Battle meditation was not merely a province of the light side; powerful dark side users could twist the wills of their commanded armies not through subtle influence, but with total domination. This perversion of Battle meditation was called Sith Battle Coordination by the Dark Lady Lumiya. It was later identified by Darth Caedus as "Sith Battle meditation"

Keywords; powerful, domination, perversion...

And as Om raises the point one has to ask, given these 'NPC' characters; how reliable are they? Is their fear/loyalty to Skygge enough to ensure they don't succumb to such power, assuming they could even cast such a powerful technique, and say... usurp her throne?

And here's the catch: they are NPC's!

Which means, and be thankful Om took the literal approach he did, that someone with a less noble spirit could easily steal these characters and, following the logical path (as Sith have demonstrated time and again a propensity for stabbing one another in the back) turn your well plotted stragegy in to a bonified shit storm.

He spoke earlier of precidents, of consquences for ones actions, of opening cans of worms...

Just look at those slimy buggers squirm!

When Nomi Sunrider asked of her Master if those who use the dark side were able to command Battle meditation, Odan-Urr replied that indeed they could, but it was very rare.

Very rare... And it goes on to suggest that there are exceptions such as...

Joruus C'baoth, the clone guardian of Mount Tantiss on Wayland, increased the victory percentage of Grand Admiral Thrawn's armies by forty percent via dark Battle meditation. It is worth mentioning the fact that Joruus was not a Sith, and that his use of Battle meditation was merely powered by the dark side.

So we ask ourselves, "Are these 12 apprentice NPC's sufficent to merit similar exception comparable to Joruus?"

I don't think so.

When Darth Caedus ascended to Dark Lord of the Sith, he soon found out that within his mind he could coordinate and direct battle into whatever outcome he so desired. He would use a meditation chair onboard his personal star destroyer to amplify his powers. It should be noted that Caedus's early uses of the art were poor, as his first attempts only resulted in him being able to see the battle unfolding in his mind, not being able to directly influence it. When he tried to dominate the wills of his subordinates via the Force he found that they were not so easily subjugated, and reacted with hostility to his psychic intrusion.

Caedus was a Master. Caedus was comparable to a Player Character. Caedus was limited in his effect. Caedus required a "meditation chair" which we can assume is somehow akin to a focusing chamber.

Did he get better at it? Yes. He had help, and he learned through experience. These Apprentices, however, have never touched such a powerful dark side technique and yet, first time out, they're hitting home runs?

Caedus practiced regularly (he had plenty of opportunity since his early time as a Sith was heavily engrossed in war), and his proficiency became much stronger.

Fleets practice strategy, they drill and drill and drill. The idea being that when they have to go in to a combat situation they will have the skills needed to keep from running around like a bunch of headless chickens.

Did I miss the part where Skygge drilled the Apprentices in this technique, or any other similar powers... ever? At all?

So that's my beef.

Which brings us to Skygge.

As I mentioned earlier, I could not for all my digging find your promotion thread, the one in which the FC recognizes Skygge as a Knight or better. If you know where it is, please provide it. If not...

... since we are already at this point, I think the FC will conceed, as I said, the temporary rank of Knight. Exceptions have been made (see; Dacian Palestar) but those exceptions tend to be restricted to self-driven threads (see; Dacian Palestar) and their writers are reminded that when it comes to combative/collaborative threads the temporary rank has to be dispensed with (see; Dacian Palestar).

And if Skygge has not formally been promoted to Knight, and we continue to allow these characteristic abuses, you can rest assured that the Force Council will request, nay demand, certian concessions on your part. (see; the physical 'consumption' of Palpatine during his duel with Windu).

So...