I am opposed to one area of discussion in this thread. That being the debat regarding the Cree'Ar shielding. I think any further discussion should be confined to the other areas of contention, which by and large, seem to be well on the way to resolution.
Reason being that the most, if not all of the current Imperials have no formal exposure to the Cree'Ar and as such should have to undergo a period of trial and error in an effort to find a way around the enemies technology. And not the sort that says, "As an author, I already know how to over-come these obstacles but my characters do not. As such I will pretend at being beaten until such time as it really matters when, all of a sudden, my characters will suddenly figure it all out, save their asses and the day and when my enemy complains I will contest that I played the role of the confused... I just chose to do so when it best suited me."
Furthermore, and this really gets my goat...
Cataclysm is INTENDED to be a game changer. The Cree'Ar are comparable to the Vong and we stand somewhere equivalent to Vector Prime at this point where-in, and for the next half dozen novels at least, the Vong continue to demonstrate a technological advantage which enables them to run rip-shod across the galaxy and this is THE POINT!
Wes, Kach, Kraken, Corise, Seth, Beff... and everyone else who has some idea that the statu quo can be maintained should damn well dispense with that attitude. Whether in the face of the Cree'Ar or the Reavers, these factions have been employed for a direct purpose - to change the game. So you can guess that the Empire, which by its own admission claims to hold sway over THOUSANDS of star systems, is going to be hard hit.
You want to fight to restore things to the way they were? That's fucking idiotic! Naturally, from the perspective of certian characters, the fighting is to achieve that exact end. But as the author, as someone who exists in the real world and knows the plot, we/you should understand damn well that this IS NOT what we, as a community, decided on. Shall I dig out the threads in which the idea of Cataclysm, even before it had a name, were brought to the forefront? Where we, as a community and a majority, chose to have Omnae build a GAME CHANGING story for us?
Wes, I'm down right pissed off at you.
You knew this, in fact you voiced your support in previous discussions. But here you are bitching that you're being taken advantage of... but that is EXACTLY the fucking point of Cataclysm. You could, as an author, observe that we are working towards a differently balanced galaxy at the outcome. Instead you have chosen to handle this just like one of your old battles with Corise and I think you BOTH remember how I resolved that conflict for the pair of you...
You asked my advice. I gave it. I listened to your concerns and highlighted, much as I am doing here, that this isn't some Math Faction style fleet battle. But, reading your arguments here, I see you've totally disregarded that.
So, my opinion?
Wes, the ground and pound commander, should damn well take it as its written. Build on it, use this experience to expand your character and don't whine about all your hard work. How the fuck do you think Hitler felt? He should have called up the Allies and said, "Hey guys, I put a lot of hard work in to planning this and I don't want to have you ruin all that. So..."
Ahnk...
Ahnk has been around longer then... hmmm... anyone currently involved in Cataclysm. The Cree'Ar, along with BDE, are one of the two MOST UNIQUE factions ever to grace TRF.
Does this mean he deserves certian leeway? Yes. Why? Because we agreed, all of us, to let the events of Cataclysm take their course. And am I biased? Hell yes I am. But it's not a bias towards Ahnk, rather a bias towards the core intention of Cataclysm.
Whatever.
Oh, by the way Om, even though I asked to be a part of Cataclysm and to have you involve the Colonies, I'm pissed off you blew up my ships and I want to debate about getting all retroactive and getting my own damn way!
Before this devolves (too late, I see), I would like to clarify my position (since it was my post that started this humdrum).
1. The gravity anomalies were created by the Cree Ar forces and are two-fold in purpose (at least as I have written):
a. They are the wormholes used by the Cree Ar to funnel ships and (in the case of the anamolies) used to transport scouts, pickets, etc.. throughout Coruscant space and system.
b. They act as interdiction sites
I have postulated that the Cree Ar wormholes do have an interdiction effect.
I have stated that there are many of these wormholes simply opening and closing, while some may remain static.
The idea behind this was so that navigational data could not be entered into the navicomputer prior to jumping into the system since the wormhole locations randomly change.
This, in and of itself, does not mean that ships cannot jump into the system to do battle. It just means that it would be dangerous to do so.
Why?
Because fleets typically enter and leave hyperspace in some sort of formation so when their hyperdrive safeties would instantly bring those ships of that fleet out of lightspeed when they encountered an anomaly, it would invariably break up that formation leaving the attacking fleet at a disadvantage (since their starting tactics would revolve around a fleet action).
Because some of those anomalies bringing the ships out of lightspeed would also be discharging Cree Ar ships which would immediately attack.
Of course, the number of ships that are brought out of lightspeed depends on the arrangement of the fleet formation (of both incoming and outgoing vessels).
If they are Incoming:
If Wes (If we, for the moment, ignore his removal of safeties and the Sith presence) sent all his ships one behind the other, then the first anomaly that was encountered across their path would bring them all out of lightspeed and they would have to maneuver on sublights to go around or through the effect before making a jump once again...
...until hitting another anomaly that lay before their path.
Now, if Wes arranged his fleet of ships side by side, then some ships would be stopped when their hyperdrive safeties engaged when encountering an anomaly while others would move on until stopped by yet another....etc..
There would be ships that do make it to their destination but their "line" would be filled with large gaps with the rest of the fleet scattered at various points in the system having been brought out of lightspeed by the anomalies (some under attack and some not).
Those that did arrive before the main Cree Ar armada would find themselves outgunned and outnumbered and would probably be destroyed before the remnants of the fleet could arrive, and they would be arriving piece-meal as they would have been fighting the Cree Ar picket forces, scouts, etc...and would have eliminated some of them.
Presumably, those forces would inflict some damage to the Cree Ar fleet as well since there really wouldn't be time to react.... if the Cree Ar protected those outer assets with shield ships then, yes, they could be part of the victims and yes, even an Arbiter could be destroyed.
Now, for those Outgoing..
THIS is what made the "Corridor" so important. The fact that there were no anomalies which meant outgoing ships could leave the system in a single jump unhindered. It also meant incoming ships using that vector could arrive in a single jump unhindered provided the outgoing evacuation was halted so you do not have two sets of fleets facing each other going faster than the speed of light.
*
Are there civilians that flee Coruscant using other vectors rather than waiting in line at the Corridor? I would imagine so...There would be really too many ships to keep tabs on and some (being people) would opt not to follow the government directions.
With the presence of the military either blocking or in the middle of the Corridor (currently), some would probably try to take their chances with the Cree Ar and anomalies. It would also be a much longer flight time involving many small jumps.
*
Now, that is what would have happened under normal circumstances.
The actions Wes Vos took were:
1. Remove hyperdrive safeties 2. Use Sith to perform force meld with intention of engaging in battle meditation 3. slave circuited his ships
My post only takes into account the dangers of the 1st action and does not address the 2nd and 3rd actions inasmuch as they are tied with the 1st.
There is still a great danger to Wes' fleet because of the 2nd and 3rd action which I will elaborate on later but they were not the subject of my last post.
Wes entire action is based upon the belief that starships can maneuver around solid objects on the fly traveling faster than the speed of light.
He stated:
I looked up the references and found nothing to indicate that this navigation took place while going lightspeed.
For instance:
Navicomputers plot courses through hyperspace all of the time but they do not plot their current course while the vessel is at lightspeed traveling that same course.
So, the maneuvering through hyperspace would take place before or at each jump point, if necessary. The ship does not change course in mid-hyperspace to go somewhere else.
Hyperlanes are also like this:
In fact, if maneuvering through hyperspace did not require multiple jumps, it would be impossible to track a ship.
Regarding my statement earlier as to the purpose of the anomalies and their effect on a ship/fleet's normal operation (with safeties) and why it might be quicker to go from Alderran to Tatooine than through to Coruscant is because:
What about detecting things in transit while at lightspeed?
Can force users detect dangerous anomalies or obstacles at lightspeed?
Yes. Powerful Jedi.
However, for those force users or navicomputers that detect obstacles, the only option (the only action) open to them is to disengage the hyperdrive. That is why a hyperspace courses involve multiple jumps...because the navicomputer knows of the obstacles before hand.
If it does not know anything about the destination or it's been years since the navicomputer has been updated, then even normal jumps to a location become dangerous. A Jedi/Force user's odds of survival are better because of their ability to detect obstacles before running into them but their force ability alone does not mean they will be safe.
The above article seems to indicate that not all force users are even able to do this.
Conclusions I drew so far:
Therefore, a ship at lightspeed with remain at lightspeed until it is brought out manually, automatically or if it runs into something.
Sith: I was not going to sweat the 12 Sith apprentices and whether or not these NPC/characters were considered "powerful enough" to detect obstacles for their fleet traveling at lightspeed since there was nothing they could do about it other than go through it or stop.
And they were not stopping.
Which brings us too:
Can ships at lightspeed run into stuff in realspace?
According to this, I believe they can:
However, Wes had a point in stating to me that those ships of his that do run into stuff would not produce wreckage as mentioned above and I concede the point.
However, the Cree Ar scout or picket ships not at lightspeed would produce wreckage, in my estimation, so there would probably some explosion of those ships, perhaps a flash of light but no huge supernova wave of energy release... heh heh.
But then, if ships traveling at lightspeed can strike other ships, Wes states:
My answer here is:
Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops. It is dangerous. If people do things out of the norm then the risk does increase. Just because a maneuver uses military ships does not make that maneuver smart and does nothing to minimize said risk.
Even with safety devices, it is stated:
And that is just natural causes.
Who jumps into a system littered with gravity anomalies, littered with Cree Ar fleets, and littered with the wreckage of two full Imperial Fleets?
2. The Sith.
As stated before, the Sith in a force-meld trying to detect the obstacles at lightspeed that they could do nothing about did not phase me. Wes stated in his post that these apprentices were trained by Skygge and that is fine.
What interested me about Wes use of the Sith was that they piloted the Tyrant (Wes flagship).
So the questions I asked myself were:
a. Did Skygge also have Navigation and Helm Education for Imperial Capital Ships training as part of her darkside curriculum for these 12 apprentices who took over these positions on the good General's flagship?
b. Just because they are force users does not mean they are skilled at piloting any ship they please, yes?
c. Or is piloting the Tyrant (or any Imperial Capital vessel for that matter) a simple matter of any old bloke stumbling onto the bridge and poking away at the controls?
In this, Wes (to me) was unconsciously trying to wave his hand across the reader's face about the awesomeness of his Sith and their ability to force-meld so no one would consider the fact that they were probably not qualified to helm the Tyrant.
So you have a flagship intent on going through the obstacles at lightspeed (some obstacles having enemy ships) from whose Navigation and Helm Pits are stationed by 12 Sith, who happen to be dividing their time pretending they know how to fly an Imperal Capital Class Ship and detect those obstacles that they can do nothing about.
Could it get any worse?
3. The ships are slave circuited.
So you have a fleet intent on going through the obstacles at lightspeed (some obstacles having enemy ships) on a flagship whose Navigation and Helm Pits are stationed by 12 Sith, who happen to be dividing their time pretending they know how to fly an Imperal Capital Class Ship and detect those obstacles that they can do nothing about and the rest of the fleet cannot do anything about it since they are slaved.
When Wes' ships come out of hyperspace, the flagship is still piloted by Sith who do not know how to pilot and whose fleet is controlled by the actions of the flagship.
So, this whole exercise is for me to say that if you jump blindly into the fire disabling your fire detector then expect to be burned.
However, my last statement in the post was:
I did not say most of the SS fleet was blown away. I did not say 50% were blown away. I just said many warships were lost that day.
I left the actual tally of damages up to this point to Wes.
Future Action:
Battle Meditation: I would be of the opinion that any battle meditation done by these 12 Sith would:
a. throw the Tyrant into a momentary confusion (since the warship's Navigation and Helm Pit crews (namely, these Sith) would suddenly stop their navigation and helm activity to begin meditation) and by extension throw the fleet in confusion since they are slaved.
b. Battle Meditation effects would not be as strong as Palpatine's, Vaders or Caedus because the Sith are visitors to General Vos' command ship and so there would be no "meditation chamber" (as those other Sith Lords) used to enhance the ability.
c. Battle control would have effectively been given to the Sith apprentices and taken from General Wes Vos because of the nature of Sith Battle Meditation:
Slave Circuited Fleet: Since slave circuitry is designed to help move ships with less than a full crew, slaving a fully crewed ship into a battle puts the entire movement of Wes' fleet in the hands of the Sith controlling everyone through battle meditation. The Sith would probably sacrifice the slaved ships to save themselves if the battle turned against them, which, being the non-tactical knuckleheads in the ways of fleet strategy they were (not to take away from their ability to use the force and twirl a lightsaber) it would.
Or, if for some reason, the flagship stopped the signal that controlled the rest of the slave circuited ships, the fact that a signal can be used to control these ships remotely opens up the possibility of the enemy using that very same signal to have Wes' ships fire on themselves... Being slaved and all that.
Now, for all this other stuff...
Gravitic Anomalies
I would have to say that Wes and Kraken's thoughts on the anomalies within the system are correct. However, if the Cree Ar warships also have an interdiction effect themselves, I did not consider it but I also had no reason to write about it since the main fighting between the Cree Ar advance forces and Coruscant defenses took place within the mass shadow of Corsucant (No Man's Land) which was an interdiction in itself.
The position of Wes Vos fleet
I must confess when I first read it, I did not place them between the planet and Artanis' ships but perpendicular to a Cree Ar fleet. However, I failed to notice the comment about not wanting to run into Coruscant which means that his fleet was facing the planet. Since Artanis' fleet is also facing Coruscant, this would either put Wes parallel to Artanis or behind him.
However, since Wes was not worried about running into the Cree Ar fleet if his fleet was coming up from behind, I would have put him parallel and close to the planet.
Still, I can see where Ahnk would feel Wes were between the Cree Ar and the planet because in order to send fighters to carry out Theren Gevel's order, those ships have to be close and that means inside No Man's Land... a feat only possible because you removed your safeties on your hyperdrive.
Jamming
I would say the jamming is inconsistent. The anomalies themselves would have jammed must of the comm traffic especially since it has been mentioned that the rest of the Empire does not know what is happening at Coruscant (the same as Yaga Minor) and since signals are spotty in escaping, Zell put his message to Kraken on a ship to personally carry it to Vladet. Still short range comms seem better (not perfect) and there is the occassional signal that gets out (ie: Regrad hearing about the notice of LON representatives dying in alien attack). Also, if there is a blanket jamming going on, Artanis' message would not have been heard because that jamming would block Imperials reception (if not Cree Ar's transmitting it).
Anyway, a very basic outline of what I thought was the positions at the siege (prior to Kach moving through the Corridor) and prior to Wes entrance I will try to attach.
The Cree Ar positions are nebulous because there hasn't been a need yet to define them. Suffice to say that there are groups/clusters/fleets of varying strength positioned at different locations. Since their movement is not linear, a fleet could appear on the opposite side of the planet only to go through a wormhole and appear behind Wes newly arrived fleet since they hold (what I call) the 'microjump' advantage.
The Cree Ar do have large numbers of warships at their disposal since, with their transgalactic wormhole, they can pull resources in from the various galaxies their Dominion stretches throughout.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Beff - You're ok. But if you build another ship, I'll blow it up again. :dead
Ahnk - You lasted until the end of page 1 before beating your head against the monitor and cussing out your opponent. The 3 step program seems to be working.
No joke, I have unironically enjoyed reading this thread. No schnadenfreude, no pettiness, just the old reminder of Star Wars arguments that made up my teenage years.
Om, I agree with you but for one point regarding that hyperspace article.
It mentioned that all things in realspace cast shadows into hyperspace - the bigger the object in realspace, the bigger the shadow. A ship would cast a small shadow. An object traveling in hyperspace would have little to no effect on a small object in realspace, at least according to my reading. However, a large object, such as a planet or star, would cast a large shadow and could destroy a ship in hyperspace.
Based on that article, I was not concerned with the Cree'Ar fleet but rather with the planet. Each Cree'Ar ship would have little to no effect on a ship in hyperspace, whereas a planet would.
Hence why I mentioned crashing into the planet.
Oh, and one other thing - the only thing that's actually being manipulated by a Sith is the pilot's station. The others are in a Force meld with that Sith, using their powers combined to strengthen his own senses so he can maneuver around obstacles. And yes, I forgot to mention that the slave rig was disabled - I'll disable it at the beginning of my next post. Besides, it was a jury-rigged slave circuit (which is why some ships are going to be lost on the way in) that linked only the piloting controls of the fleet.
And (my assumptions working again - they kill me!) I assumed that as soon as they exited hyperspace the pilot station was again given over to the Tyrant's pilot.
And, for future posts, I don't mind saying you have to exit hyperspace to change vectors. However, in the interest of storyline purposes, since it's already written and done and since I relied on my interpretation of those articles and books for the idea of steering in hyperspace, can we let that one post stand (grandfather it in, so to speak)? Otherwise, the whole point of the last post is nil, since the entire assumption (which, if what you say is true, the naval officers on board the Tyrant would have told Wes was a problem, logically) was that you could steer in hyperspace.
I haven't read most of this, since I just woke up and need to get ready for work, but I will say that since I'm instituting the jamming, I can broadcast through it freely. :)
