I am not one of those saying that TNO should just 'roll over and die'. If we can get a storyline going that went through the gradual fall of TNO I would be all for that. The question is: who is willing, able, and would allow such a thing?

My suggestion about a faction reset is not about 'letting the good guys win'. It's about evening the playing field. Considering most of our veterns here are 'evil' writers would Empire become dominant again? Quite likely. However with a fresh start the good guys would have a better chance. Do I really want a reset? Not really, as it would screw up storylines like I said before: I am someone who is more interested in character development and the story itself then who has control over what. However in my case I would only need to make minor adjustments should a reset happen (Kal may have to make more though, so I can't speak for him here).

I admit that I am not 'read up' on the threads in the Battleground beyond those I am actually writing and those I feel could effect me in some way. This is mainly due to lack of time, but also with the thought that not doing so will help me be more 'realisitic' on what is going on with the galaxy: keep the risk of my characters knowing something they techniqually shouldn't know in otherwords. On top of that I tend to keep my snout of it because I am not ready to dive into the 'fleeting' thing, but had my characters join the Coalition for the time I may become ready and willing to lend a hand (or claw in this case ;)). Course if the Coalition disappears the Trandoshans would no doubt become indepent again, though some elements within the Trandoshan government would help a rebellion if one was to arise.

Drayson, you make a fool of yourself. You're demonstrating the classic 'TNO Tactic' right now.


Dolash, I've told you many a time for several years that you should let the Coalition go. Yeah, there's a lot of work there, but there's a lot of baggage too. It's your first group, your first try. It's filled with mistakes, blood, earnest tries and horrible mistakes. You should start fresh. It'll hurt at first, but I think you'll be happier in the long run, really.

You're right, Titus. All of TNO's success is built upon a "tactic" developed to thwart all threats on an OOC level, thus leaving us free to NEVER do any IC writing!

Pull your head out of your ass and look around. TNO has gotten where it it through sheer IC writing, not because of any "TNO Tactic". And that kind of bullshit, especially coming from someone like you, only serves to insult and discredit all that work. So you can stop insulting your members and our work now. Thanks.

*coughs* H&G *coughs*

And where's your scathing condemnation of Corise, Irtar? For you cannot argue that he was not every bit "unwilling to lose" (I would argue more). Hypocrite.

Speaking as someone who is not really connected to either TNO or GC (I don't really see the Sith as working towards the same ends as TNO) I thought I'd chip my in my thoughts.

Talking about the Bilibringi thread that there was some controversy over: As a "neutral" reader who was genuinely hooked on the thread, it did seem like Joren was making all the moves, and then Drayson would simply say "But what they hadn't realised was this....", destroy the latest idea by Joren and continue describing the counter-attack. Call me naive and ignorant of fleeting if you'd like (you'd have a point), but that's how it read to me. Of course, I mean no offence to either party: Both are far better writers than me. I'm just stating how I read it, in the hopes it'll be useful to Dolash in gauging the opinions of people.

I can't see any reason why Good should defeat Evil. Good and Evil are only points of view, after all. We're only judging Good by the standards of today, and I think we're all intelligent enough to realise that what's "Good" has changed significantly over many years - take the slave trade as a case in point.

In terms of storyline, it would be very interesting to read of the GC falling (which seems the logical culmination of the wear and tear lately) and a Rebellion arising.

Even more interesting, I thought, was a comment by Park that seemed to go unnoticed - the idea of a power struggle inside the Empire. Not only is that believable based on what we all know of empires (think Roman Empire), but with some of the characters involved (Simon, Drayson, Telan, Wes, etc), the stories could blow the mind - and give the GC or its successor a chance to rebuild while the Empire was otherwise engaged. Who knows, in the end there could be an fractured Empire.

Not just Good v Evil any more, but Good v Evil v Different Evil.

Just some thoughts there...

The Irtarded

The GC argues back which makes us just as bad

So nah. It's just right now we're focused on pointing out the issues with TNO rather than GC and why the GC will not succeed. If you want to get on the foot about what's wrong with GC, then I've a pile of criticism for that....

Beff and Joren aren't leaving just because they feel like it. (Well, at least Beff isn't. :P)

Two thoughts on that:

1) With regards to Bilbringi: yes, some of my posts can be summed up in that matter. The point is, however, that the only reason I could do so was because Joren had wantonly ignored my posts which had already contained that information.

The most ready example is the attack on the Golan station. Yes, I responded with "but the yards were shielded". But that fact had already been established - and ignored - by Joren earlier on in the thread. So that should not and cannot be taken as an example of TNO "refusing to lose". Rather, it is an example of the GC "refusing to lose": when something does not conform to their plans, simply ignore it.

2) Yes, there are many good oppertunities for internal struggles etc. within TNO. The immediate problem there is that TNO has spent the time since the restart organizing itself to prevent exactly that kind of internal division. We've worked hard IC to present a united Empire. Not that we couldn't write around it, just pointing this out as it's probably not widely known outside of those few that follow TNO's postings religiously. ;)

We had one discussion a long while back about Bhindi's rise to Empresship, etc. So there are many possibilities on that front we could/would explore.

Ithron, I just wanted to point out that that is one point of view. I for one do think of good and evil as absolutes rather than as relative to changing points of view. But not wanting to hijack the thread, I'll leave it at that.

Talking about the Bilibringi thread that there was some controversy over: As a "neutral" reader who was genuinely hooked on the thread, it did seem like Joren was making all the moves, and then Drayson would simply say "But what they hadn't realised was this....", destroy the latest idea by Joren and continue describing the counter-attack.

With regards to Bilbringi: yes, some of my posts can be summed up in that matter. The point is, however, that the only reason I could do so was because Joren had wantonly ignored my posts which had already contained that information.

I agree with Drayson here. If you read back through the thread, you'll notice that in both major controversial points - the Golan station and the interdiction field - they were mentioned before Joren attempted to do what he did. But like I said earlier, this thread is not about Bilbringi, and we should consider Dolash's question.

Whether the Coalition falls or not is not the community's decision. I would hate to see it die, since I think there are a number of good storylines with it still, but if it does and a rebellion crops up, that makes more fun for me as the SS will be one of the first lines of defense against such attacks.

Now, for the other issue here: I think TNO would willingly lose if the storyline demanded such. In fact, I think it eventually will lose. The Empire cannot sustain its current expansion rate and the traditional Imperial policies and hope to survive. However, I also think that no real attempt to exploit TNO's weaknesses has been made by the GC, which in my opinion is a shame.

Personally, I would love to see an internal power grab within the Empire. That is the nature of such governments, and it would be a dadgummed good storyline. Especially if Drayson was involved. Not only would the Empire fracture, but even individual units would fracture. It would probably split the SS down the middle, and since most of them would probably side with Drayson, they'd definitely come into conflict with the Guard.

So here's at least one TNO member who's willing to lose if it furthers the storyline. I think Demos is right about the reasons TNO wins much of the time. I also think that the insults to the character of TNO writers (as being too competitive, not wanting to lose) does have some merit. I won't bring up specific examples, but I've seen several threads where certain individuals in the GC accomplish amazing things with little regard for TNOs defenses or actions, and, frankly, it pisses off the opposing writer. I've also seen OOC conversations or PMs that harshly criticize TNO writers for an honest mistake that could easily be corrected. That also pisses people off. Is it any wonder, given the above, that TNO doesn't like to lose to such things?

I for one do think of good and evil as absolutes rather than as relative to changing points of view.

Wes, I'm sure many people would agree with you. Perhaps what I should have said is:

I think we're all intelligent enough to realise that what the majority of society considers to be "Good" has changed significantly over many years.

Obviously, there is no reason that society's "good" at any one place and time has to align with "absolute good" that you mentioned. But still, that's only my opinion....And I think that's enough of the nature of evil for now, huh? :)

As for my comments on Bilibringi: Heh, I gave my opinion as a casual reader, not as a military analyst. I'm not going to dispute what Demos or Wes have said: I have no strong opinions either way; I've said all I'm going to do on that. Hell, I thought Bilibringi was a cracking read - what more praise could Demos and Joren want ;)

I think I've said everything I wanted to really, so I'll stop hijacking and leave this thread for its original purpose.