I actually did look the passages up and quoted them directly. And yes, that reference is in there - page 267, same as the second quote. And I would tend to go with Matthew Stover's version, since Shatterpoint is an approved canon novel.
That said, your Nutorium wouldn't render the fighters invisible, it would just give them "relative stealth." Meaning that the sensors on certain larger capital ships could detect them.
Oh, and by the way, the EMPIRE project does have its weaknesses. I've already picked out two or three (which I am most certainly not going to reveal here, so don't ask. There is some loyalty to the Empire). If you discover those weaknesses, we would allow them to be used against us, providing such use was fair. I think a little concession on your part would go a long way to preventing arguments such as these in the future. You don't have to win every battle, you know. It's better to lose with good writing and fair play than to win with uber-powerful ships and weapons and have no one that wants to RP with you anymore. At least in my opinion.
I think there is one issue that not one person has adressed, that being the posting for another rpers ships. There is no way that this would ever be allowed in roleplaying threads. A persons ships and equipment are their own. Others have no right what so ever to post damage or anything for other players things. I believe if these things happen and do not stop, moderators should do something about it and penalize anyone involved.
Everyone should be responsible for their own writing. If you have a problem, talk about it here. If you feel someone should have taken damaged don't post for them, but talk to them about it.
Also just going off and blaming someone for this and that does no good, this should be a discussion, but it just feels like people going after one another with hidden agendas. I think while demo attacks corise for being uber, he is acting that way himself. Just because you think someone is doing something wrong, doesn't make it right for you to do the same thing as well. Demo, you have stated many times you think corise should take more damage, but you yourself take very little. It should not be a one way street. If you are so fair at rping yourself, than you should post damage for your ships if you see fit and then on here ask corise why he hasn't for his ships or if you think he posts too little damage. In the few posts, he has posted damaged, while minor, a few of his ships have recieved it. For you, only one has recieved very minor damage. If Heavy bombs did hit your ship, and you admited that some did, it should have done far more than just a little minor damage. They are very powerful, a lot more so than the torps you launched at corise.
Both should play fair or just concider the whole thread void.
Actually, yes, based on Rogue Squadron novels where X-wings do revert to change course.
I already have. And to point that out, Kraken and Kach both have specific systems listed under their R&Ds that allow them to do such things. Yours do not.
My ships are based on pure statistics from canonical stats. They do have special abilities, and so do yours.
Yes, I do know what is a superconductor is. I am studying Materials Engineering after all. More below.
I don't think so. I would like to see proof of that. Superlasers are one thing, but turbolasers are an altogether different thing. I haven't seen any significant improvement with turbolaser development. And you still haven't disproven my size comparison either.
Ultrachrome wasn't typical plating used by anyone. Only the Jedi used it. And shortly after those wars, everything in the Old Republic was demilitarized: warships were scrapped, armies disbanded, and weapon's development forbidden. Things and technology were lost; that's my guess why Gravity-well Projectors were lost. There is no reason why Ultrachrome would be different.
Within reason. And besides, haven't you already done that? None of your ships have taken damage at all apparently: the Curaisseurs have held out against more than a hundred space bombs, which actually shoud be enough to completely destroy them. Your interdictor and Comm ship got fired on, didn't take any damage, and fled into hyperspace. Do you want to tell me where you posted any damage to your ships?
It's unrealistic to take my text out of context. Minor hull breaches are just that. YOu might have breached one of the layers or even several of the layers, but that doesn't translate into direction weapon failure. Especially when I use those weapons right afterward and fire on your ships within the same post.
If you can find a good reason for that, sure. THough I doubt there is one.
THe armor isn't weak, and you haven't taken the second layer into account either, which is a non-ultrachrome material that is also heavily resistant to heat.
But there's not. Lucky for me.
Ah, no.
I've already stated that my techs are fallible. I've already pointed out in other threads that there are at least 5 ways to detect them, none of which you have used. Show me where it says that game stuff isn't canon at TRF.
And that's somehow more descriptive than my own technology?
I don't see life-support seen in either yours either; that's considered to be standard technology. On the other hand, I do see specialized sensors and stealth detection programs on R&Ds from nearly all factions though. That still doesn't explain how it works.
And I agree.
You certainly can't use a flaw against me without explaining how it's used, otherwise anyone could say: "Look! A design flaw. Your ship is completely destroyed." "But how?" "I'm not going to tell you." The point being that anyone can come up with a bluff and say that there is one where there is not. Your ships are jammed unless you prove it to me.
They're also twice as large and have no maneuverability whatsoever. As it is, the A3 is pretty much the Kashan equivalent of a Missile Boat. But it carries less missiles/ordinance in favor of stealth equipment.
A) Space bombs aren't much larger than a proton torpedo. B) they have the same speed as the fighter they were launched from (momentum) C) they are stealth, because that's how they're written under the A3 R&D itself.
It's under the Pegasus-class, which started the jamming of your ships in my post previous to my last one. It's also in CUSWE as well, though you don't seem to like that source.
Telan and I would disagree as based in "Tidings of War". THe engines are offline and you have something of a shield gap in the rear, but that doesn't complete destroy the ship.
THat's fine with me.
1) Uberness.
The A3 is no better than the Missile Boat. It's just as fast, just as shielded, and carries less munitions despite being 150% of the size.
This leads to a second point.
2) Expense
The decision to not produce the Tie Defender wasn't completely about cost. A lot of it was because Imperial High Command didn't like the idea of having a fighter based on Rebel philosophy as well as giving pilots more independence from the fleet with the addition of a hyperdrive.
It's one of the great things about having a culture orientated around a military. Nor is it unreasonable. Consider the USA right now, it uses stealth combat fighters on a regular basis and most of the USAF fleet is being replaced by the F-22 Raptor, a stealth fighter jet. Yes it does cost money, it(S9) might be twice as expensive as a typical starfighter, but it also doesn't get destroyed nearly as easily, meaning that there are less ships to replace after an engagement, which makes up for the relatively high cost per craft.
That's not true. I've already shown within this thread hull breaches from your energy weapons where you have shown none. And it does have heavy missile defences, and even then some of came through and hit me. And my ships can be targetted if the Magnetorian sweep(jamming device) isn't activated, and even when it is, it limits both sides in the nearby vicinity. And railguns in all factions, like those of SE, Anthos Republic, and VC, generally ignore particle shields because the said shields aren't designed to counter them. I suggest anyone to read the Anthos Hypervelocity gun to see my point.
Hardly true. If you read the Kashan rps more thouroughly, notice that the bulk of the Kashan fleet has been built before it joined the GC. The Seraphs and the S9s have been built literally for decades.
5) Playability
I have admitted that my gunships have been damaged yet I find it hypocritical that you haven't mentioned any damage at all to your ships during the battle thus far. I have said that if I am specifically jamming an enemy ship, that it will have troubles targetting another ship, that's not a lie, that's a developed R&D based on Canon technology. People have developed jamming and anti-jamming systems to use in Battles, Drayson included, and I see no reason why I can't as well. My fighters are no faster, no better armed than the average fighter. They do have stealth properties which make them hard to target, but there are tradeoffs for that as well. I'm going to point out that the EMPIRE ships have the same basic concept as well, being hard to target with their flickering shield.
How is your ship essentially doing a 180 "a minor course correction"? And what Corise said.
This is in relation to having a specialty computer to do complex microjumps. Yes you do have a speciality computer that you R&Ded yourself, the MULTI-XMAP. However no where in the EMPIRE R&D does it mention anything about having the MULTI-XMAP. Nowhere in the RP does is mention the EMPIRE SOa or SOb doing any microjumps or having the MULTI-XMAP. Yet in all your other R&Ds you mention the MULTI-XMAP.
And as far as the R&D rules go you need to mention it/the capibilty of doing that in R&D document and/or the RP. Same goes with the Gravity Well Generator.
[QUOTE} To submit an R&D: you must first write out how it works, in what is called an 'R&D Document'. This is what you will be submitting to the R&D Moderators for organizing in the R&D Information Forum. You need to write out a description of the technology, as well as an extended description of what it can do. A short (~500 word) role-play showing its every use is also required. Appropriate additions to the R&D Document can include the size of your R&D and a brief description of what it looks like.[/QUOTE] Which brings me to the first of my own motions. The EMPIRE SOb as Drayson is using it clearly does not comply with the R&D rules as he claims it has a gravity well generator and at least another special system which were not mentioned anywhere in the R&D or RP.
The second is the following:
Uberness on Drayson's part in the use of his R&Ds. Essentially what Drayson is claiming Corise is doing, yet with proof, where as at least one of Drayson points can (and will) be shown to be incorrect if you read earlier portions of his post (but I'll cover that later).
Corise called Drayson on just giving out damage to Corise's ships and not mentioning any to his own. Drayson's response was:
I'd say thats a little uber considering that IF he is right about the bombers and Juaire ships doing little damage, he is completely ignored 2 Star Destroyers firing on his ships. Apparently 2 Star Destroyers can't do anything to his heavy ships that are half the size, at best, of the Star Destroyers (which sounds rather familiar to Drayson's complaint that I cover later on about Corise supposedly not accepting damage to his ships by ships twice their size). And to add to that he is ignoring 3 ships the same size as his own attacking his ships (the Seraphs).
I'd say thats more than a little uber.
Now, disputing the last of Drayson's points with a quote from his own post.
But wait. Earlier in his post Drayson said:
Isn't that like, the exact opposite of what his complaint said? Interesting, I don't think the two go together very well. And also isn't Drayson ignoring the damage put out by Corise's 2 Pegasus Star Destroyers against ships half their size? And the damage put out by Corise's 3 Seraphs (around equal size to Drayson's ships)? Thats weird that he'd complain about something which he disputed in his own post earlier, yet be doing the exact same thing as he CLAIMS Corise to be doing.
And onto the jamming issue. IC you said you were jammed and after that never mentioned communicating with your vessels. Now to justify a point OOCly you can't just essentially say that a subordinate lied to his superior officer in TNO's military. And if that's what you are saying happened then TNO's military probably has some issues.
I refer you once again to Stover's writing in Shatterpoint, where the ultrachrome was used on all smaller ships (not just Jedi craft) and, according to him, was only useful for low-fire-rate weapons and the lower-powered laser cannons of the day. Not heavy turbolasers.
How about the fact that you only posted minimal damage to your ships, even though the weapons fire should have decimated the foreward sections, and Drayson's weapons just happened not to destroy your weapons? Do the words "fair play" mean anything anymore?
So then what is it? Not ultrachrome, but resistant to heat...is it also resistant to penetration? And if it's so good, why isn't on the outer layers as well? Or is this another Corise dodge?
And why not? Considering that would be standard for weapons. Or do your weapons simply pass through your armor without harming it?
1) This isn't an R&D thread, so I don't think Drayson has to provide the info here unless asked about in a way in which he uses such technology in the thread. 2) Take a look at the descriptions of stealth stuff in the Mk. II TIE Phantom. That's what Drayson is talking about, I think. BS it if you want, but make it reasonable and believable.
I don't think that's quite correct, but I'm not an expert on space bombs. However, to have enough explosive power, they would have to be quite a bit larger than torpedoes. Mass and velocity are the two key components to force, and unless you're using baridium (which I don't believe you are), they have to be packed with explosives to create the kind of power you're talking about. And if you're so sure that game stuff isn't canon, try playing X-wing Alliance and launching space bombs at canon ISDs. Even a hundred just manage to knock out the shields.
Number one, though I haven't read the R&D, is to ask how you got around the fact that they'll still emit heat signatures. Or do they have no propulsion? Are they visible? If not, why not? What kind of sensor negators or cloaking devices do they have? And wouldn't that add to their size? Meaning that they'd be significantly larger than a normal space bomb, not to mention a torpedo?
This doesn't negate the fact that it still costs a lot of money to produce, money which Kashan, being a relatively new faction IC, should not have. Even the Empire is only building a relatively few number of Mk. II Phantoms, which are about equivalent in cost to your A3s, and, I'm sorry to say, the Empire probably has quite a bit more money than Kashan, considering they own over 100 worlds.
Still does not negate the fact that Kashan has only been around IC for a few months and has in that time upgraded every ship in its fleet, and most of them multiple times. Considering all the upgrading, which takes time, it's surprising that more than three quarters of your fleet isn't in dry dock constantly.
Actually, this is not true. With a speed rating higher than the interceptor, shields nearly impervious to starfighter weapons, and the stealth abilities (which, according to you, make them invisible), there has to be some compensation other than maneuverability. Generally larger, heavier ships are slower. It's just the way of things. Mass times force and all that.
All that said, I think Drayson was commenting on your R&Ds overall. For example, your battle droid. I was reading over your R&D for that (considering my squadrons are on the ground most of the time), and I couldn't think of a single way to kill them. I mean, it takes several E-webs with constant fire to bring them down? And they're impervious to ion weapons? Your ships are triple-shielded, double/triple-armored with impenitrable superconducting, heat-resistant, energy-resistant armor? Any weaknesses at all? I can't find any.
1) In order to reprogram a course once in hyperspace, yes, a ship has to revert. However, once programmed, a course may include turns that will be effected while in hyperspace. Such is the case here.
2) Multi-XMAP
3) Your ships are uber; see above.
4) Ultrachrome is obsolete. See above.
5) My ship's damage is underestimated. This is because a) your attack was not as successful as you believe, and b) in direct response to the underestimation of your own damages. See below.
6) You do not dispute that your ships were hit. You simply claim that the shots mysteriously and conviently did not hit anything important.
This is in despite of the fact that two of your major weapons systems are located in the nose of your ship.
I find this quote of interest:
In which case your Tachyon canon must fire through the ship's armour! The image you chose for this ship also belies your claim:
Not only does the front end appear unarmoured, but there are two clear structures tucked away that could only be weapons. And they appear very vulnerable to a direct hit on the front end, which is precisely what your ships experianced.
You seriously underestimate the abilities of the CPEC, and overestimate the abilities of your own ship. The CPEC is twice the size of your ship and sports guns designed to kill capital ships. And it has caused relatively minor damage to your ship - yes, two weapons are dead, but that is a function of your design as much as anything else.
7) Game references are by and large ignored as canon on TRF. While understandable that you might not know that, it does not make it any less true.
8) But since they can't be targetted, it doesn't really matter if they can't manouver. The thing is, they're fast (quicker than an Interceptor), very well armed, shielded, and invisible. Giving up some manouverability for all that hardly seems a fair compromise. Not to mention that they are faster than an Interceptor despite being twice the size and carrying a heavy payload. Uber.
9) I took space bombs to mean "canon" (WEG) spacebombs. That's my mistake.
10) Also my mistake, to some degree. You misspelled the word under your "weapons" heading, and in this thread, so when I did a keyword search and a Google search with that word, nothing came up. That said, the CUSWE description says very little, and I question the weapons capabilities at this rather extreme range.
11) The Missile Boat is also, iirc, a WEG invention, and severely overloaded. Your ship, you fail to mention, is also invisible. It is also bigger, and bigger generally means slower. So it is bigger and heavier, yet just as fast. Still carries a significant payload, and is invisible. Again, uber.
12) It would also be inpractical to deploy the TIE Defender as a mainline fighter. The Darksaber and A3 would be substantially more expensive (even more so given the relative economy of scale between the Empire and the GC, and Imperial production advantadges).
The point about expense goes beyond the fighter, though: Kashan is managing to find both time and money to produce new warships, redesign and refit old warships, and produce extremely expensive starfighters on a very significant scale. All the while expanding at a very rapid pace. All of which costs money.
13) None of which address my point. Just because it may have basis in canon, does not make it fair. Your ships, as it stand, cannot be targetted. They cannot be hit with a concentrated missile attack. They are highly resilient to turbolaser fire. Meanwhile, your guns go right through shields, kill crewmembers right through shields, and on and on. All of which, even if rooted in canon, goes against the nature of the game.
Let me give you an example: Abolisher cruisers. While deeply rooted in canon and entirely feasible, their use was outlawed at TRF. Why? Because it went against the spirit of the game. They were far too powerful and infalliable for their size.
Kas' Hypervelocity Gun also, unlike your ships, had stated drawbacks that prevented it from being abused. Ulike your R&Ds, which simply pack tech onto a ship and claim to be better than everyone.
14) Yet you've built many new ships (as many as 10 Pegasus', for example), while also refitting older Seraph I's, starfighters, and designing new craft.
15) You have not admitted damage to your gunships. You've claimed that they somehow suffered "minor" hull breaches to "non-vital" systems, in the face of what I've said and even your own designs. You've basically appealed to the uberness of your tech. Whereas, while I admit freely that the damage to the Heavy Cruisers as it stands is underestimated, it is based on a written chain of events that led to that end.
The EMPIRE fighters are not invisible - the system makes them more difficult to target, but by no means impossible. Yours claims to make them impossible to target. And they do this without tradeoffs - they are similarly speedy, shielded, and armed, to similar fighters.
As for your jamming, yes, and I mentioned that the fleet is not communicating, but that they have orders and are following them.
The ship around the battle (and interdiction field), turned, and approached from behind the Pegasus. It did not simply fly in a straight line...
Actually:
Emphasis added. EVERY ship in the Imperial fleet (except, I guess, tiny patrol ships and the like) is equipped with Multi-XMAP.
The gravity well is not mention, and I'm entirely willing to remove its mention. Otherwise, it is merely described in both the R&D Doc and thread as being relatively heavily armed and shielded. I am curious, what other "special system" are you talking about?
I'll be perfectly honest here, and say that I plainly forgot that Corise had mentioned the Pegasus' as also engaging the Heavy Cruisers. I'll edit that accordingly once we get the other issues out of the way.
What? I am being jammed and am not talking to any other ships in my fleet. So what's your point?
1. I believe in all SW books it has been mentioned that ships in hyperspace travel in straight lines and much come out of hyperspace to change direction and proceed to their destination. They must do this multiple times if the planet it not in direct line with the vector. If it has been proven otherwise please list some examples from books so that I might be educated.
2. Is the TNO TIE interceptor different or modified from the canon one? I ask this because the TIE interceptor was bested long ago by other fighters. The E-wing, which take out not long after endor, was both bigger and more heavily armed and armored than the TIE int and with also heavy shields and it was still said to have the same speed and manueverablity as a TIE interceptor. In the years since then, would it not be right to say even faster craft were developed. I believe the XJ fighters had the sleed of Ewings in the NJO books and Ewings became even after, as did Awings which were redesigned. Therefore it is entirely possible to have a fighter bigger and both faster and more heavily armed.
You need only look at some of the fighters around today. The MIG-31 is one of the fastest fighters around, but it is also one of the heaviest and most armed. The same goes for F-15. The F-16, one of the lightest fighters, is agile, but not nearly as fast, however the newer models are becoming faster. Mass in space is only relevent to acceleration and not speed. Any ship can be fast, but it takes more time to push a larger craft to a certain speed than a smaller fighter lets say.
3. Corise never posted his ships couldn't be hit, just that his fighters were hard to hit. The capital ships are larger and even with the jammers a way could be found to target them. He even posted taking damage for some which means that they can be and have been hit with fire. Hell even 60 years ago without electronics humans were able to target and hit fast moving fighters or ships from far away. It is possible.
4. Corise has posted about his armor in the R and Ds he decribes the purpose of each layer. Double hulled ships are nothing new and exist in reality. His plating against warheads it similar to a system being developed by the US military.
