You said they dispersed. I simply motivated them a little.
If you are goign to quote me, quote me correctly.
Second of all, I can get as near to Metalorn as I want, save past the shields. Now without losses is an entirely different story. Planetary defenses, I explained, were being knocked out as they came online. A turbolaser or Ion Cannon does not suddenly become ready for action. Systems must be charged and checked over to make sure there's no problems before going into action, because if something is wrong it might explode or the reactor core might melt down. Perhaps it is always active, which woudl save on recharge time and so I woudl assume it to be the case. Great, but you still have to check them over. And ground based shots are not really that accurate. The atmosphere would refract the beam (this is the main problem earthly military forces are haveing trouble with before they can deploy their own laser weaponry), and the fact the bolt woudl not arrive immediatly in orbit forces you to second guess where my ships are going, and so if they change velocity the slightest bit the shot will miss by dozens of kilometers.
As for my own ships... I have several times the firepower of any ground based turret network. All my ships Ion cannons are firing at a select few targets, and while most woudl be terribly innacurate for hte same reasons as your own ground based defenses (minus that part about moving... I know exactly where I'm goign), even a signle Ion Blast woudl be able to cripple a turret. A select few systems knocked out woudl take it out of action. A continuous bombardment, to make sure the turrets don't become active again after the Ionizing wears off, woudl make sure they stay out of the battle until my troops can take the projectors.
Besides, a surface turbolaser or Ion Cannon can only cover a few hundred square kilometers of sky. What if I simply choose not to be in that area? It woudl not be an unprecidented feat to detect where the batterys are, adn move out of their way, perticularly with the surveyor's powerful sensors. That woudl be a logical reason to bring them along- to detect planetary defenses.
Second of all, I have severe doubts on the number of planetary defense cannons you have. Imperial Protectorate Capital worlds have only four Turbulasers and two Ion cannons. You act as if you have hundreds or thousands. Where is Kashan goign to get the cash for this? GC? A shipyard is one thing, but a full fleged network of surface defense cannons is entirely different. That would cost as much as a few good fleets. And Metalorn wouldn't have build them. They don't need hundreds. A few, at most. They're capitalists, not warriors, and as I quoted from Battlefield Earth, "Profit first, last, and always- profit!"
BTW, I assumed your fleet was coming back. An honest mistake. That last line has been removed.
Several bones of contention with Kach's post in addition to the ones that Corise raised. Essentially you did way to much in a single post. But even ignoring that and say that we assume you have a long time to do this, there are the following points.
1. It doesn't take long to set up a minefield. The point of minefields is a cheap and easy to set up defence. So it wouldn't super weak despite what you said in the post. And Kashan has held Metalorn for at least one month ICly at this point, so an extensive minefield could be set up.
2. Somehow you destroyed "several Corvettes and Light Cruisers" AND 24 squadrons of Corise's fighters. Despite that they were high-tailing it out of the battle area. And with, apparently, no losses to yourself. And in ONE post.
3. You decided Corise's planetary defences were SO old and out of date that they were "nearly obsolete". To the best of my knowledge, there has been NO advancement in planetary turbolasers or ion cannons in all of the history of TRF. Nor any advancements to planetary shields. And this used to be an industrial centre of the Empire, so they would have up to date defences. Furthermore its not up to you to say that someone's stuff is obsolete with no backing for such a claim (to the best of my knowledge there is no previous RPed statements to that effect).
4. You managed to bring up your gravity well generators after Corise jumped out of the system and yet still intime to stop the volley of Starflares, but ignore that gravity well generators take time to power up, its not some instantaneous thing. I think 4 or 5 minutes was mentioned previously in this thread. An average post in a battle is supposed to last for 4-5 minutes, total.
5. You essentially destroyed Corise's planetary defenses in 1 post, through a tactic that has no backing to it in canon or TRF history. Yes ion cannons can go through a ship's shields. This is stated in the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology and has been RPed as such multiple times at TRF. But NEVER have they showed the ability to go through planetary shields in cannon, NOR have they ever been shown as having the ability to do that in any TRF RP that I know of. If they could go through planetary shields, why didn't the Empire bombard Hoth's generators with ion cannons from orbit, rather than the ground assault? Also, in Rogue Squadron, ion cannons are described as doing less damage to Borleias' planetary shield than turbolasers, and certainly not going through the shields.
Basically you did way to much in one post, and many of the things that you did are not possible or are based on false ideas/information you made up in the post to benefit yourself (as far as I can tell, though its possible there is some backing for some of your points, but I'd like to see that backing).
I didn't destroy the fighters, I said they were left there with the cap ships gone. That was a wording error.
And the post is now back in teh shop.
BTW, gravwells on even the old 418s took only a miniute to charge, and it takes a miniute or two to calculate a microjump out of system without his fancy microjump system to help guide him, so I had the time to charge em.
That's not valid in the least. Especially since you wouldn't be able to detect them. Yes, you have CGTs, I realize that. Consider this, from CUSWE:
You're by a planet: Metalorn. They won't work here.
No Kach, my defenses were already powered up, that's already been posted. I would disagree with the rest of that on the grounds of how planetary turbolasers are described both in books and in games. For example, planetary turbolasers can immediately open fire in SW Rebellion or as numerous sources, such as EGWT, which says that they are used to provide covering fire while Planetary Shield Generators are activated. Which, btw, were already activated when your fleet arrived.
I disagree. See what Jan said.
Maybe, but those are batteries, ie, more than one gun. It's important to note that ground and space battery numbers are different. For example, the standard battery in the US Army is between 6-8 guns while the Navy it's two to three.
SHow me where it says that Imperial Protectorate Capital worlds are only that well-armed. And no, Kashan and the GC didn't pay for it. Nor did they or Metalorn build it. The Empire and CIS did when it was one of their fortress worlds. The reason they are older models is that because like you said, "Profit first, last, and always- profit!".
EDIT: I should correct/clarify myself on one issue. Modern-day naval batteries are actually 4 guns. WEG batteries used on starships are 2.
With regards to planetary defences, some comments:
1) Kach is right in that you will only have a few guns able to target an approaching fleet. When TRF built defences, each turbolaser network meant you had one to target a fleet. It was deemed unfair to claim that by building one network, you suddenly had twenty guns, and that sort of thing.
2) I do believe that planetary guns would be used to cover the world while shields are brought up. They would be kept "at the ready", by nature of their design.
3) When TRF built defences, the TNO "Fortress" was:
1 x Epsilon Station 2 x Gencore II shields (Sometimes 1 or 2 Gencore I shields) 4 x KDY turbolasers 2 x Ion Cannons
This was the defence for Coruscant, Yaga Minor, etc. Metalorn would have rated a light defence in comparison.
Add to that that whatever defences they do have are old and probably not terribly well mantained compared to Imperial standards.
Also, Corise, I see no mention on CUSWE or Wookipedia of Metalorn having any sort of super heavy defence. It would have defences, certainly, but nothing extraordinary.
4) Why are you shields already up? The cost of operating such a system full time is incredible - I doubt Metalorn could afford it (or would willingly pay for it). Kashan likely could not afford it either, they way they spend money. :D
5) As you know/should know, games are not a sound basis for argument here. Rebellion is a game.
Other:
1) Your fighters. They are not infalliable. The Surveyor is designed specifically to detect cloaked ships. It can see you, imho.
2) I believe that shields stop Ion cannon fire. If they did not, why would the Empire not simply have bombarded Hoth with ion fire? Why would the Rebels not have simply disabled the Imperial fleet with their Ion canon? Remember, they covered the transports with ion fire, and they waited until the shield was down to fire it.
The Hoth cannon was able to disable an ISD so easily by virtue of its incredible power, not because its shots went right through shields.
I normally would agree that Kach has done far to much in one post, however! Corise's fleet abandoned the planet. That gives Kach some room, because Corise now has only passive defences between the TNO fleet and the planet. It is illogical for Kach to spend four posts going "now I'm clearing more of the minefield". IMO.
Ion cannons don't go through Planetary shields. HOWEVER, they do go through ships shields. I draw your attention to page 84 of the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, 1997 version, labelled ion cannon, the third paragraph.
"Since ion blasts are unimpaired by energy shields, ships have no defense against them short of reconfiguring their shields - and this would make the shields useless for absorbing standard laser blasts."
As for why the Rebels waited to launch to fire their ion cannon when the shield was open, the Ion cannon was meant to temporarily distract and disable the Imperials, not completely disable them. They could only fire it every so often do to the need for it to recharge. And because a ship is only disabled for a certain period of time, they couldn't take the time to completely disable the entire Imperial fleet. Plus they had a ground assault incoming and had to evacuate the base, so they didn't have time to wait around and disable the entire Imperial fleet.
And while he doesn't have to spend 4 posts clearing the minefield, he does have to spend some time on it. And has to take into account that he WOULD suffer damages in all of this. But we'll see what happens in the edited post.
That's incredibly low based on what's have said Coruscant's defences are in the books and otherwise. There's references to it having at least two layers of planetary shielding per hemisphere with Wedge's Gamble. I would disagree about Metalorn having light defences. If you are the Empire, do you want your one of your most major factory worlds to have light defences? I was also basing Metalorn's defences on canonical references, rather than on what TRF has actually used. I've looked around at what other factions have used as well BDE, for example:
Dameo: -Gencore II Shield Network -Gencore II Shield Network -Gencore I Shield Network -Gencore I Shield Network -PIM Den Network
<b>Argai</b> -Gencore II Shield Network -Gencore II Shield Network -Ion Cannon Network -PIM Den Network -KDY Advanced Turbolaser Network -KDY Advanced Turbolaser Network
Granted that these are the more fortified and important planets, but Metalorn is probably the most fortified planet within the Confederation. I'm looking up what they mean by Network as well, since it seems to imply something else as well.
And so the ones on Metalorn are old. The Mk I versions of the Gencore and the LNR. I would disagree about the maintenance as well, especially since it's just recently joined the militiant Confederation.
I suggest you look at the planet database. I already listed the defences before this thread even started. It wasn't exactly a big secret. And I'm basing that on Common Sense as well, as stated above.
As I've already explained, they were left over by the Galactic Empire when they left the planet.
I disagree, especially when the items in question are accepted to exist, and when they only appear in that game, such as the Gencore and LNR.
From the Tie Fighter Hangar Bay:
I see no mention of it being designed to specifically detect cloaked ships, moreover, the only way that Kach has said he has been detecting my ships is with CGTs, which I have already shown wouldn't work in this case. If you're going to detect it somehow, tell me how.
TRF and canon precedence says otherwise. EGWT, pg 84: "Since ion blasts are unimpaired by energy shields, ships have no defense against them short of reconfiguring their shields--and this would make the shields useless for absorbing standard laser blasts."
Ship ion cannons have limited ranges in most cases. For example, the NK-7s used on the Imperator Mk I have only 66% of the range of the heavy turbolasers. Planetary ion cannons are different in that the fact that their huge size overcomes the range disadvantage associated with ship ion cannons, but they too would likely have less range than a turbolaser of the same size. From the Star Wars Databank entry of the v150:
Where are you basing that from? If it's on basis of the whole power aspect, in that case it means that my LNRs can simply destroy the Astrus-class Star Destroyers with a single hit. If that is the case, I think that's overpowered to say the least.
Kach has more than a minefield to deal with. Kach has potentially to deal with a swarm of stealth starfighters that could make life hellish. Moreover, the planetary defences are already active and ready to fire on TNO fleet, which they could very well do given their superorbital range.
The "Planetary Ion Cannon Network" or "Advanced Planetary Turbolaser Network" means that per network you always have 1 gun able to fire in any sector. The PIM Den Network was an R&D and therefore I believe it means something else.
Corise, on the issue of the CGT, its says it can be inconclusive, but they'd get some reading of some sort, especially if the fighters were massed together. They obviously aren't going to get perfect targeting data as if the fighters weren't cloaked at all, but they would have an idea that something was in the area where the fighters were and would be able to send ships to investigate. Knowing that you have used stealthed fighters/bombers in the past, they would probably guess the "something" was a group of fighters/bombers. And they could send ships out to investigate. But it is more than likely impossible that the Imperials would be able to actually target the fighters effectively. And shooting randomly wouldn't work because once a dogfight somewhat erupted (though it would be a strange dogfight to be sure), the Imperials would have to worry about hitting their own fighters and would realistically not really know if there was a GC fighter between two TIE Defenders or not.
What happens in canon is almost irrelevent to TRF - in canon, if an unimportant planet gets attacked, there wasn't even a fleet on station to deal with it. I refer you to Thrawn's lightning attacks on several New Republic planets: the good guys had to scramble a fleet to defend the planet from a nearby base. Here, every planet seems to have a swarm of Star Destroyers standing by to defend it.
*shrug*
The TNO defences were, by TRF standards, very heavy. The Gencore II was said to be able to stop a superlaser blast, for example.
I asked why the shields were already online when the TNO fleet arrived, though. That implies that the shields are kept up 24/7 - which is an incredible commitment of energy and money. The reason a planet might employ turbolasers to cover themselves while shields come up is because it takes time. And it takes time because they drain huge ammounts of power.
Neither here nor there, really, but something to think about.
Regarding ion canons, such is only be feeling from watching the films. I'm well aware that TRF canon contradicts this - though I'm sure if you look around, you'll see examples of both, so it's really a moot point.
My comment on the power of a KDY planetary gun is based on the NIF database, which states that the LNR-1 can destroy frigates in a single shot. How accurate the NIF database is is another matter entirely. :)
The New Republic and the Confederation are very different entities in philosophies. The Confederation is best compared to the Old Republic right before it turned into the Galactic Empire. It's a militant state, and yes, it's common sense that it would have a large fleet around its industrial base.
Didn't you read my IC post? Long-distance sensors picked up the Imperial fleet in hyperspace; that's why the shields were activated and up and running before it emerged at all. I don't think shields would take any longer to generate and come online as a gravity-well generator as well, which also takes up massive amounts of power. I would say they'd be up in a minute.
I'm not sure what you're saying/meaning here.
Ah, that makes sense to some extent. But a 300 meter long frigate and a 1600 meter star destroyer are rather different in terms of size comparison.
EDIT#1: To avoid confusion about the LNR numbers, would it be all right I switched the term "batteries" with "Network"?
EDIT#2: Kraken, my shields are still up on all ships. I only diverted energy from my turbolasers, shields should still be at full. I don't think a chain reaction is possible with raised shields.
