I want to see some canonical references to that to even consider that. When most planets went independent, their defences weren't destroyed. Want a canonical example? Bakura. The Empire didn't destroy the defences when they ceeded the planet to the Alliance. Moreover, you, like Demos, now have the burden of proof to show otherwise, since Metalorn has already been rped as having them before this allegation came up.
Is it? Many novelists make errors themselves, especially since they're not as familar with technology as they should be in most cases to begin with. Drayson has just brought that up in regards to the X-wing series.
Common sense rule again. Two, is there any proof for the existence of special combat particle shields?
Yet again, don't define what my forces can and cannot do if you don't have evidence for it. There is no reason why an LNR wouldn't have as great as range if not a larger one. Turbolaser technology in most cases hasn't made leaps and bounds since the clone wars, the only exceptions being some of them used on TRF-specific faction vessels. Moreover, a LNR is significantly larger than most of the weapons on your fleet. The only one that might come close to size is the STLs on your Astrus, and that's still debatable. With the exception of your Raptors and possibly the STLs, any turbolaser on the fleet is not capable of both being in firing range and not within an LNR's. ANd moreover, the farther the ships get away, the less damage and accuracy they are capable of doing.
Sounds fine to me.
Did it ever occur to you that I could be using my KIBC? There are always patrols on the edges of systems looking for smugglers and other criminals. Alternatively, I could have a Redemption-class with me and its KIBC II, which is capable of making microjumps to areas with no nearby KDI ships. There's also the point that I could have simply blind-jumped.
And no, STLs are not as powerful as planetary turbolaser by any stretch. Consider this, from the Astrus-class R&D:
It's equal to four standard heavy turbolasers. Four standard heavy turbolasers don't destroy a frigate in a single hit, whereas a LNR does. THerefore, it is not as powerful as a planetary turbolaser.
No, but the mines won't all be destroyed. There are more than simple "Abolisher-style" Mines. And as well, the Shadowwrath and Merr-Sonn Defender. And as another big surprise, they're stealthy.
Agreed for the most part actually. I think a STL might be capable of complete vaporizing most corvettes. But that's the point...I was not given the proper time to respond to it all, and it does contradict with my previous post. As well, aren't you(Drayson) the one, that said destroying ships in a single post was a bad precident? This would be setting the precident then.
No, I will always cry foul for even touching the keyboard ;) But consider this: I can't think of any of those actions not being related to TNO inflicting immoderate amounts of damage to a KDI ship.
Do you want to discuss hyperphysics with me? Making a preproggramed jump isn't exactly impossible simply because your ships were there. Normal ships do not create mass-shadows, the sole exception being those equipped with gravity-wells. And with a minute charge-up time, those wouldn't be to stop my fleet from making the jump. The only time it would would be if we were at point-blank range, which we are obviously are not, since Kach has just agreed that the fleets were a long distance apart through the reference to a long-range volley.
And I am in agreement with Demos comment on Mr. Do Gooder's comment (that sounds bad). Anyways, the point of this thread is to ensure that both sides are playing it fairly, which regrettably does not always happen even with the Rpers of the best intentions and technical knowledge (yes, that includes me).
EDIT: Just finished reading Demo's post; as always, more comments.
Guess who's back-up shields are identical to their main ones? Yeah...
I don't think so. That the Pegasus would be able to pull the EMPIRE in some instances is true. This is a case where it would not be. The EMPIRE and the Pegasus both have nearly the same amount of mass if the EMPIRE doesn't actually have more. This is because of hull shape and volume. For example, sphere will have more volume, and as such mass, than a shape of another size. I think you would understand this pretty easily because the same principle is used on the Attack Spheres.
Where are you getting that from? THe Audacieuse is on your flank, and tractoring your ship as well, which would also make your tractoring movement to the Pegasus impossible because two forces acting on it from opposite directions.
See above.
I want to see references as to how metal plating stops ionic energy, because there is no reason it should. Metals actually conduct energy, such as electricity.
Indeed. See the tractoring comment above. As well, there are going to be over half the bombers left.
Ah, no. Because the jump actually took place after the Pegasus rolled. So even the EMPIRE did manage to maneuver itself using tractor beams, it wouldn't have changed, because the KIBC II makes instanteous jumps to anywhere on the battlefield, just like your own battle computer.
Who said anything about turbolasers? Do not assume. Since your defenses are leftover imperial ones, I know exactly waht I'm up against, and merely am staying out of thier range while I launch my op.
Look at the astrus's pic. The ship's 2300m long, and those turrets each are each a little less than an eighth of the ship's length long- about 287ms each. A standard Planetary based STL is 400m from the NIF database, so you woudl be correct in taht regard- not quite as powerful alone, but together they have mroe punch. As for range, as mentioned, your Surface weaponry does have to pass through an atmosphere, and as the US military is finding out the hard way, the atmosphere does hell to the aiming of energy weapons. In fact, the problems grow as the beam's power increases. Your weapons woudl have considerable accuracy problems and have their ranged shortened by passing though teh atmosphere.
Whoops... I forgot to mentione the minesweepoing force. I'll go do that now. ANd they'll have one of Park's new rigs or something, because they're usefull against stealth weaponry, and TNO has lots of experienced wiht stealth mines. Yours are two in a long line.
Basically, you just denied the fact that CGTs exist. A cloaked ship can be detected by its gravity signature (aka mass shadow). A CGT works. We can agree to that. It can detect cloaked ship's gravsig, and it can detect regular ones. THerefore, regular ships create mass shadows that woudl force you to recalculate your jump (a blind jump woudl run you right into your mines buddy, bye bye metalorn fleet) and therefore any precalculated jump is a waste of reactor energy.
This is from the man giving me BS about seraphs over Genon, with their "advanced, superdense structures." C'mon, wiht all that ultrachrome and ferrocarbon and Bushchromium your ships are made of, they mass as much as larger ships.
An ISD II can take a hit from every Ion cannon from on an executor and remain active, says the NIF database. Why woulsnt' this be on newer ships?
[QUOTE]Quote: Without his fancy KIBC to home him in, it would take several miniutes to calculate a jump. I have five Astruses, and a multitude of smaller ships. Each astrus carries 6 STLs, each as powerful as a planetary defense turbolaser. FIred into the bulk of an enemy fleet, even wildly, woudl do quite a bit of damage to smaller capital ships which woudl be vaporized by a single strike. Even if he just fired and fled, the random firings woudl hit something.
Did it ever occur to you that I could be using my KIBC? There are always patrols on the edges of systems looking for smugglers and other criminals. Alternatively, I could have a Redemption-class with me and its KIBC II, which is capable of making microjumps to areas with no nearby KDI ships. There's also the point that I could have simply blind-jumped. QUOTE]
Bull. You never mentioned any outer system patrol craft in the R&D, therefore youcan't use them. And as mentioned above, you can't blind jump because you'd hit your mines mass shadows and be torn apart before revertin to real space. You'd end up at best two or three light years away, like Talon Karrde and company did.
The point of Planetary turbolasers/ion cannons is to hit shit in orbit. Unless you have some special gun that says it has extra range (and even then its a debatable point), then the planetary weapons can hit you. The point of them is to defeat a fleet laying seige to the planet, so they would be able to hit you if you can hit them.
I cannot hit them, I"m out of range. THey're out of my range as well, though.
The post is delibiratly hazy- I have no intentions of using a bombardment that would put me in surface weaponry's range, at least not right now. I have something a bit more sinister.
And if they can hit me up in orbit through the atmosphere, my Astrus's STLs woudl be able to hit him as well. BUt I cannot hit them nowd, and they can't hit me.
Ok, I thought you were hitting his shields or turbolaser emplacements and saying he couldn't hit you (the same applies to the shield, if you can hit it, then a planetary weapon can reasonably hit you). My bad, I think.
EDIT: Oh, and Demos, do you still have AIM? And if so, are you still using Heenster01 as your screen name?
Corise, based on your conduct in this thread I can only conclude that you will cry foul with any action TNO takes. Even if that action is "then I wiped my nose".
Frankly, it grows tiresom having to spend three days debating OOC bullshit in order to proceed five minutes in this battle. It is becoming blatantly obvious to me that your only intention in this engagement is "winning", whatever that might mean.
You ask for canon references on one hand, and deny them with the other. Either you accept canon or you don't, none of this mix and match bullshit.
That you roleplayed Metalorn with defences is true, and I (for one) do not argue the presence of defences there. But just because you roleplay it does not make it thus! I could roleplay that TNO has a fleet of 1000 Death Stars flying around the galaxy blowing up planets. But what would happen if I tried to do that in a battle thread?
Exactly.
The same applies to your "oh, my backup shields are exactly the same as my normal shields!". You can write whatever you want in a battle RP. The fact of the matter is, they are backup shields. Common sense and logic dictate that a backup weapon/defence/whatever is never as efficient or effective as the main one. Otherwise it would not be a backup system... look at fishing boats as a good example. Yours has a 225hp outboard engine on the back as the main drive. It also has an 8hp backup, just in case the shit hits the fan. Not a second "just in case" 225hp engine!
That said, no, your back up shields will not be as effective, for one simple reason: when your shields fell, my shots hit the hull. In doing so they destroyed shield projectors.
Not that it's a major issue, but again, you are claiming your R&Ds to be uberpowerful. If you say your backup shields are equal to your normal shields, you're just saying that your shields are 10 000SBD. Try posting that - 10 000, instead of "5000 + 5000 backup", and see what people say.
When it comes to the STL, and regards to its destructive strength: it depends. I do not consider it unrealistic that it would destroy a Corvette in one post, and you really cannot "respond" to an STL attack because it's over in an instant.
You two can debate the fairness of that play.
Here's the thing, Corise: you've argued EVERYTHING we've done. And in a lot of those cases, you have been wrong. You might not like to admit it, but you have been wrong.
Again, this leads me to believe that your only interest in this thread is to win. It is seemingly impossible for you to simply respond to an IC action, you must fight every aspect of it in this forum before you can move on to post a response.
This is not roleplaying!
The point about the EMPIRE depends entirely on the ship:
It is both significantly shorter and significantly narrower than the Pegasus. So it masses less. Add to that that it's using its engines to aid in the move.
But that's not the issue at stake here. The issue is the fact that, instead of simply accepting a perfectly logical and legitimate manouver, you're arguing technacalities.
Next will you be giving me approximations of mass and thrust and trying to prove that it can't happen? After all, you have a team of grad students on your side! They'll show that idiot that his imaginary ship can't do that!
I don't give a flying fuck.
Either you're here to roleplay, or you're not. Your conduct in this thread implies the latter.
The Audacieuse is aft and on your flank: your rolled your ship and I followed, putting the Pegasus between us. Which means that no, the Audacieuse is not tractoring me; you described that happened after my ship had already been pulled by the Pegasus, meaning your other PSD is in no position to attack my ship with anything, unless you want to fire through the Pegasus!
No, the Redemption is in the wrong place. You ordered it to jump based on where it was before the Pegasus rolled. You say it makes instantanious jumps, but you contradict that yourself:
Implication being that the Redemption needed a minute or so to calculate a jump. So either its in the wrong place, or it has yet to jump, because it now has to recalculate its jump.
Nothing you've raised as supposed "concern", Corise, is relevent. Your comment on whether the EMPIRE can manouver or not is entirely subjective: neither of us is going to conclusively prove it can or cannot. And I'm not going to try. That's not why I cam to TRF. If I wanted to debate physics of fake warships in a fake galaxy using fake technology, I would go join the TFN Technical Commentaries crew.
TRF is about the writing. Not about your ships or your graduate students or your pal, Stephen Hawking, who says that because a gravitational singularity materialized in the midst of the battlefield and swallowed my entire attack, and you can prove it because you're half way through a first year course in physics.
If you want to win your battles by way of OOC arguments and technicalities regarding your made up technology, fine.
Just don't expect anyone to want to "roleplay" with you.
Jan: no. I can't touch him and he can't touch me. My planned assault has nothing to do with turbolasers or Ion Cannons now. Just another misunderstanding due to bad wording, like the 24 squadrons.
Fair enough. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Just in advance, realize that all defences are activated.
I have to agree with Jan's comment, since that's what they were meant to do, and have done. I'll agree with you on them packing more punch together. I think they probably have more power altogether than a planetary turbolaser.
Agreed, and fine with me.
A gravity-signature isn't the same as a mass shadow. A mass shadow is a "hyperspace signature of large celestial body" or in the case of an gravity-well project, an artificial signature. Ships at close range do present a large enough mass nearby to prevent to hyperspace travel. That is documented, but at long range, no. And Kach, only the key and obvious routes are mined; others aren't. And while that's debatable, the fact that the MDF can turn it on and off at will (as already demonstrated in the rp), would negate that.
Bushchromium comment aside (that was witty, btw). That is sort of correct. Correct in that the metal is denser and consequently heavier in comparison to other metals of the same size. However, the actual weight of the ship depends on the thickness of the armor, which in turn depends on the design of the ship. The Pegasus is a fast ship, and wouldn't weigh more than any other ships of her size simply because the armor is actually thinner in comparison to them, but has an equal overall mass because of that. Seraphs are a different case, where they have intentionally thick hulls for their size.
Good point. I had to look that up actually, as that is a recent addition to the NIF database. That is based from the "Bacta War", where the ISD II Freedom attacks the ESD Luskanya. And that is true, it could and would remain active. In fact, the complete ionization of a vessel of that size is basically impossible, because circuits can normally be repaired pretty quickly as well as that ionic energy can't pierce into the very depths of the ship of that magnitude. It can, however, disable systems near the outer side of the hull, which the "Bacta War" also shows. My RPing has shown that, and none of the EMPIRE's very inner workings should be effected, in fact, only the systems closest to the hull, which is mainly weapons and nearby automation. That is what I meant by my ion attack.
I think I've already mentioned my ability to control the minefield. And I'll agree that since there was no system patrol craft, I won't use them. But that doesn't stop me from the using the KIBC II used on the Redemption-class, which at least one should be present within the MDF. The KIBC II isn't limited to making jumps to other KDI vessels. It can make a micro-jump anywhere with only a few seconds of calculations, and consequently, the rest of the MDF could follow it just as fastly.
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Fine by me. Like I already said, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
That's going too far. The only times I have had conflicts with TNO's actions is when they directly something unreasonable to my assets or when it's RPers have rped something that has earlier contradicted my own post.
*snorts* I believe Mr. Do Gooder's comment applies here, when he says TNO's only object of the thread was winning, and you yourself said that this was a competitive engagement.
Could you give me an example of this? If a canon reference is very vague and could be interepted in other ways, and other references directly contradict it, then yes, the secondly references do have more weight, because they are not ambigious.
The fact of the matter is that the back-up shields are identical to the main ones is stated within the R&D itself. I'll point out that this isn't exactly a novel idea either. Mon Calamari Cruisers also have very efficient back-up shield system was well that brings their shields back to full strength instantly, albeit it uses many more smaller shield projectors to do that (but power consumption would be the same). And no, I don't think they'd be capable of destroying all of the back-up shield generators.
That's very different actually. That's 10,000 SBD at the same time, not 5000 SBD at once, which makes a huge difference. 10000 SBD shields would be much more denser, and consequently more difficult to penetrate, than 5000 SBD. As I have already shown, having back-up shield systems being equal in power to main ones isn't an original idea of mine, it's a Mon Calamari one, and that's canon in more than area.
If I am wrong, how come you can't prove that I'm wrong? You have had few if no counterpoints which discredit my own at the very last round of a topic. That's the point of a debate, finding the answer as undisputable truth. I haven't seen much of that from TNO.
The same has been said of you, and not by me. If that's what you wish to believe, go ahead; I'm not going to debate you on what we think the other person thinks of what we think, etc. The only place that goes is to name-calling, which is rather unproductive nor relatable to the RP thread itself.
In this thread? The first half is true. The fact that I must fight every aspect is not. I haven't fought how your ships changed formations instanteously mid-way through the battle, because that really didn't effect the RP. If there is something that I do think was unfair, I will respond OOC first. That's keeping with how I've seen things handled here in the past. If things for some reason have changed, tell me.
We could argue about the mass of ships forever, seeing that we both created them. I could point out that molecular armor is incredibly heavy(because it's dense) for example, and that several meters of it is going to add a lot of additional mass. You(and Kach) could point out Ultrachrome and Ferrocarbon are also heavy. And I could counter with geometry, point that out the volume fact, and we would be stuck at a standstill because there would be no specific way to undisputably determine which masses more.
But you have yet to negate the Audacieuse tractoring your own vessel. And assuming that you are right, and that a Pegasus-class SD is indeed heavier, wouldn't the EMPIRE be drawn to that ship? On the other hand, if a Pegasus SD is indeed lighter like I have speculated, then you still couldn't pull off that maneuver for reasons stated already above.
Those are more opinions.
Not grad students, just a couple of juniors and a senior. I've been pretty lucky to have them help me with this. Though you calling yourself an idiot is a bit much. I don't think you're idiot, and neither do they(student team). Besides, some of this has been topic of very interesting and stimulating dinner conversations. And yes, we now have a printed copy of Om's post hanging on my wall.
See above.
Quote: Corise nodded. “Make the jump. A minute?”
“Affirmative sir.”
The implication I meant was that it would be a minute before all of the forces would in position to overwhelm your ship from multiple sides and thus, that would be the optimum time to stage a boarding like that, because your shields would be at their weakest during that time.
It wasn't Stephen Hawkings, btw. Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from, but I'm not about to simply let someone overrun everything by writing less descriptive posts with, as TNO RPers would say, a large amount of "BS" content. Particularly so, when mine tend to be longer,coming from multiple viewpoints/locations from the battle as well as being technically correct.
All right then. I think if anything this shows what many others have said recently: competitive rping is a thing of past. Saying that something will do such-and-such damage to another ship that is not yours is bound to create arguments. If you want a thread where there aren't any arguments, either let others define what damage happens to their ships, or talk/PM and agree on course of actions and events. As it was, my suggestion originally, and how I have rped in the past as been with each side defining what damage occured. And that is where most of our debate came from: What damage can TNO do and why. Just my two cents.
