*chuckles at how many TNO people don't have a clue what their talking about cause they are too stupid to research their examples before citing them*

*Wonders what the hell Jan is referencing about*

Gue:

In my many arguments with Dolash about the GC-BDE war, he impressed upon me that most of the GC military was pressed into the attack on BDE space. Something like the entirety of Eastern half as well as a good portion of the Western half. I have no idea what TNO and the GC are up to at the moment thats sparked this thread or the arguments therein, but I'm aware that whatever is going on, theres very few ships, and people, to spread about.

Those halves combined are 26 planets out of 76. So roughly a third of the Coalition. That's certainly not the entire Coalition's fleet or people. Gue, can I ask, are you familar with the Contegorian Confederation?

Drayson:

When "the Coalition" goes to war (as with BDE), it is that central government that goes to war. So even if the Confederacy does not supply troops and ships, they are going to feel an economic drain as either a) the central government increases taxes, b) the central government cuts services to direct money into its war, or c) the central government wracks up tremendous debt.

How many planets involved the GC-BDE War I do not know. But let's assume we use both Provinces as Gue has suggested. The banner as you would say it is is 26 planets. Obviously the Cren and Azguards are at least somewhat involved too, so if we add those planets to the list as well, that's 35 planets. That's not even half of the Coalition. Like I've already stated previously, I was under the impression that the forces committed were already built up and paid for since before the war. Irregardless, those planets are in charge and responsible for their own military forces. Where are these new costs to other subfactions coming from?

Maintenance? That's something they've already been paying for. Crews? The same. Perhaps you're talking about replacements for the ones being destroyed? That would make sense, but that too would fall on their governments, not the subfactions that aren't under the "banner" as you put it. Granted, every subfaction's populace pays a percentage of tax to the mainstream Coalition, just as every state citizen pays a tax to the U.S. Federal government.

...but I see Onyx being in a relatively strong position, the Confederacy as being in a relatively strong position...

To me, what you said earlier doesn't seem to fit what you're saying now, but I bet there's a reasonable explanation.

The central government as you call it, doesn't provide any services to Confederation territories.

So while the Confederacy (for example) might not feel the strain as much as the Cren Alliance, they will share some of the burden. And the Coalition as a whole will still suffer on an economic level - unless you're saying that the Confederacy is not going to contribute to the rebuilding of the rest of the GC (i.e. rebuilding destroyed cities, not strictly military spending).

Actually, no, I haven't heard of anything about the Confederacy rebuilding destroyed cities, economy, etc. Mainly because that's something that was mainly dealt with before my time by others, notably Brandt Enterprises, for example. Not that I would mind it, but that's something that has never occurred in any RP or IC reference.

When a unified force like the GC goes to war, the entire GC will suffer. Some parts more than others, of course, but they will all suffer.

I disagree. Let's look at NATO, which is what I tend to think is the best realworld model of GC (mainly because it uses independent governments formed into one body). The US goes to war in Iraq, they lose people, no question about it. But what about Norway? Are they losing people? Norway hasn't sent much if anything to the Second Gulf War.

I think the reason for most of our disagreements is how the GC government works. I don't see it all being a highly centralized government upon which everything goes through. The fact that "independant governments" is listed within our description I think is good proof of that.

I can see maybe see your argument for a poor economy for the subfactions that have been involved with these two wars. I can see a rebuilding economy that is moving towards its zenith after the GC-TNO war (provided it's not involved with the current GC-BDE war). But I certainly can not see a poor economy or a poor military for a subfaction that has had nothing to do with either of those wars.

Those halves combined are 26 planets out of 76. So roughly a third of the Coalition. That's certainly not the entire Coalition's fleet or people. Gue, can I ask, are you familar with the Contegorian Confederation?

At the begining of the war, it was made clear to me that the bulk of the GC fleet, with the exception of defenses, were being used in the multiple strikes against the Imperium. A third of Coalitions fleet is not what was represented in said strikes, indeed a much larger numeration was in order.

Regardless of this though, no I'm not familiar with the Contegorian Confederation, though I can assure you it was not something that was in existance at wars begining. At least, not something that was exposed outside of RP's I would have bothered reading.

I believe in the thread in which the war started, when my armed delegation was ambushed, that a very large Coalition fleet, the entire Eastern Provence fleet, if memory serves correctly, was present at the battle. In addition to that fleet, Dolash had mentioned fleets coming from other areas to invade BDE from the north and south. From the way he was talking a hell of a lot more than one third of the Coalition was contributing troops and ships.

Park: My point exactly. Do your research and you would understand. Don't do your research and you obviously don't understand.

Now I know Demos will be "well if you have all these great counter arguments, etc, say them" but why should I? The staff isn't making a ruling on this yet, and we all know I won't see it the way Demos does and Demos won't see it the way I will. So you guys can say whatever you want all you want OOCly, doesn't change the fact that some of your facts, opinions, ideas, concepts of what is happening/what isn't, is wrong. And I'm not going to waste my time constantly correcting you and hunting down the proper RPs, documentation, etc when YOU guys are the ones with the problem. If you want use specific examples, then YOU do the research to prove it, don't just spew out random words and pretend it is fact, when there is evidence to the contrary.

Regardless of this though, no I'm not familiar with the Contegorian Confederation, though I can assure you it was not something that was in existance at wars begining. At least, not something that was exposed outside of RP's I would have bothered reading.

Which would be my point. The Coalition has grown some since you last were active. The Confederation is my new subfaction, which is the size of one of those provinces. There are other new subfactions as well, such as the Gestalt Colonies. And existing subfactions have grown. It may have well been a lot of the GC back in, maybe as much as you're saying it is, I don't confirm or deny that since I wasn't exactly here when that started. Times change, and so do factions. The Coalition you knew has become larger and has RPs dedicated to its economy and to its military.

New Economies doesn't suddenly repair a broken one, if thats what your implying. When I'm making hamburgers and the meat splits in the middle while I'm clumping them up, adding more meat won't seal that patty back together again. Adding clusters of worlds to an over all group in a situation of peril wont fix things but for the long term. Those new worlds still have to pay for their own well being, the net effect would only be a trickle of improvement...

*Exits the thread he shouldn't be in to begin with*

Saying that the GC is already paying for its fleet so the war incurs no additional cost is ludicrous.

There is a massive difference between having an army on standby and deploying an army: it would cost untold amounts to deploy even a small part of the Coalition fleet to fight BDE.

And, as has been stated, when the war started, it was made evident that it was a major war. Not a single skirmish, not a small localized war, but a massive campaign.

I have trouble believing that the Coalition proper is anything short of bled dry, and no one from that "sector" of the GC has stepped forward to offer any evidence to the contrary.

Corise, you raise some valid points, but as you've admitted, you weren't here to see the start of the BDE war, the end of the last war, etc. And so can really only speak for relations between the Confederacy and the Coalition.

And, simply put, the Confederacy does not have the power to keep the entire Coalition out of economic disaster. Disaster like that caused by a massive, multi-pronged military campaign. The GC is/has been attacking and been under attack. This is not something they can simply shrug off (much as Jan would like to believe). To use your words, the Confederacy et al. is a "new" subfaction. Last time we talked about the Confederacy, the Coalition proper was giving you money to support your fleet growth, not the other way around.

And so, Jan: I think we are both reasonable people. Offer me one compelling reason that the Coalition is not suffering from the BDE war. You stand on a high horse and say that you HAVE arguments, but that I won't listen.

Which is untrue, but I digress.

If you truly have some prophetic idea that I have no thought of, share it with TRF. Because while I have been the most vocal on this issue by a large margin, we both can see that I am not the only one that has noticed the GC's apparent über-economy.

If you can truly defend your practices, then you should have no fear of doing so.

If you have some great point to make, then maybe, just maybe, it will satisfy even me.

But so far you've done a lot of talking about not talking about it, and that strikes me as very odd and a little bit suspicious.

You seemed to have ignored my later points. Namely that GC is NOT a federated government, and independent subfactions within GC tend to be and take care of themselves. I might agree with you that the war is causing problems for the Eastern Province, the Azguards, or any other subfaction that is involved in that. There is no large central government that is simply heavily taxing every subfaction to raise a federal fleet. I've talked to Dolash on this matter in the past. Every subfaction takes care of its self, while there is a federal fleet, it's not very large at all, and it isn't draining tons of taxes like you seem to have implied.

However, those subfactions not involved are just that: not involved. The war doesn't affect them. The war doesn't heavily affect the Onyxian Commonwealth. The war doesn't heavily affect the Confederation. The war does not heavily affect the Gestalt Colonies.

Last time we talked about the Confederacy, the Coalition proper was giving you money to support your fleet growth, not the other way around.

I can't say that I recall that all. If that happened, I doubt that it would be a claim of mine, as I've built the Confederation to support itself economically and makes its own military mostly by itself. Granted, yes, I borrowed a trio of Haven-class Cruisers for my first PT after Kashan. We do have two heavily industrialized canon worlds as well: Metalorn and Abhean. We have mining worlds, we have agricultural worlds as well. Show me a Confederation planet that doesn't have an economy that somehow doesn't contribute to either the Confederation war machine or its treasury.

No, it's not enough to support the entire Coalition; it's not meant to be. It's meant to support the Confederation itself. My main fault with your argument is that the Coalition is not the like TNO. Federal fleets exists yes, but they're very small. Julius' original fleet at Roche is a good example of that, with the Circadian and a bunch of smaller, older pre-Endor vessels. You may point to the massive fleets being marshalled for the BDE war, but most of those aren't federal fleets. They are the Cren, the Azguards, and the Provinces.