You can't change the facts post-war, and the fact is that nearly all GC fleeting went into the war. Its an irrevocable fact, regardless of whats being said now. I can't shut up to things like that.
Mine is bigger than yours! Now with more CHEESE.
Actually, Corise, you did mention that GC was supporting you at the beginning. I believe that was when we were talking about your Pegasus-class ships and how you had so many of them at the beginning. That was one of the reasons we began examining the GC economy in the first place.
Directly? No.
Perhaps what you were referring to was GC helping to fund expanding Kashan's yards in order to revamp the Coalition's flagship Coalition. Those same yards built the first Pegasus in the RP. However, that project never came about mainly because all of the wave of anti-R&Ding that swept TRF recently. It was more of a detail if anything, because Kashan already had ground yards that could have made the Pegasus since the star destroyer is atmospherically capable.
Perhaps what you were referring to was GC helping to fund expanding Kashan's yards in order to revamp the Coalition's flagship Coalition. Those same yards built the first Pegasus in the RP. However, that project never came about mainly because all of the wave of anti-R&Ding that swept TRF recently. It was more of a detail if anything, because Kashan already had ground yards that could have made the Pegasus since the star destroyer is atmospherically capable.
My bad then. Though I still seem to remember something of that sort elsewhere too. But I'm too tired tonight to search for it. Maybe Demos can do that.
^ Gestalt bastards? Maybe.
Let's look at something that GC might find unrealistic about TNO. Like, the number of SSD sized vessels used by TNO in comparison to GC and other factions here at TRF. Taken from Jan's post in the Pegasus Mk II Project:
Now, I've added up the most conservative estimate of TNO's meterage in ships. I didn't include the Arc Hammer ships or Battlestar Perlemian and I've only included two of the Corellian Star Defenders in this count. I've taken the maximum amount of GC meterage as well:
TNO: 95,000 km (Minimum estimate)
GC: 30,00 km (Maximum estimate)
Recall that GC is within 1% of being 2/3s the size of TNO. If GC was to follow the Empire's scale of using large ships, GC would be using at a minimum of 63,000 km. Conversely, if TNO followed the GC's scaling, TNO would have at most have 44 km.
It could be argued that many of these ships were built in the "old days" of TRF, and thus are not applicable to many of the rules of building fleets today. That's true, but what about the sheer maintenance and crewing costs for such large vessels? That would be somewhat considerable considering that the Eclipse alone has a crew of over 712,000 to run it, nevermind the flight crews, mechanics, pilots, infantry, etc attached to it. Simply keeping such large ships would be a significant drain on the economy. There's a reason why only 4 Execuator-class Star Dreadnaughts were built at the height at the Galactic Empire in Canon, compared to the supposedly thousands of Imperial-class star destroyers used by the Empire.
Now, I've added up the most conservative estimate of TNO's meterage in ships. I didn't include the Arc Hammer ships or Battlestar Perlemian and I've only included two of the Corellian Star Defenders in this count. I've taken the maximum amount of GC meterage as well:
TNO: 95,000 km (Minimum estimate)
GC: 30,00 km (Maximum estimate)
Recall that GC is within 1% of being 2/3s the size of TNO. If GC was to follow the Empire's scale of using large ships, GC would be using at a minimum of 63,000 km. Conversely, if TNO followed the GC's scaling, TNO would have at most have 44 km.
It could be argued that many of these ships were built in the "old days" of TRF, and thus are not applicable to many of the rules of building fleets today. That's true, but what about the sheer maintenance and crewing costs for such large vessels? That would be somewhat considerable considering that the Eclipse alone has a crew of over 712,000 to run it, nevermind the flight crews, mechanics, pilots, infantry, etc attached to it. Simply keeping such large ships would be a significant drain on the economy. There's a reason why only 4 Execuator-class Star Dreadnaughts were built at the height at the Galactic Empire in Canon, compared to the supposedly thousands of Imperial-class star destroyers used by the Empire.
Drayson, I'm not saying GC's economy is doing wonderful. I don't think any GC person is saying that. I'm saying some of the examples you(I think you cited the example I'm thinking of, but other TNO members have) are using are flawed. But I don't want to dig up the threads to prove it, cause you know that takes me effort and I'd much prefer to write a post than search for numerous different threads when you obviously didn't put in the research. However, once I'm done my post (which will coincidentally enough also relate to your specific example, but the groundwork was laid a long time ago for this so its not like I'm just making it up now to help GC), I'll be a nice person and find all the threads for you. Now this isn't an attempt to disprove that the Coalition's economy can use some work (it can) but it is an attempt to stop you and the rest of TNO from constantly degraded and ignore the efforts I have made in the past.
Note to TNO:
Next war, Impose Economic sanctions that make GC currency nearly worthless to ensure a ruined economy. Live and learn to correct past mistakes.
Next war, Impose Economic sanctions that make GC currency nearly worthless to ensure a ruined economy. Live and learn to correct past mistakes.
Alright, in order to facilitate a reasonable conclusion to this debate (which, imo, has been blown way out of proportion - come on, five browser pages?), I'm going to offer a compromise.
1) Portions of the GC economy are in pretty bad shape - namely, the Eastern and Western Provinces, and the Azguard Province - since they've been involved in all GC wars directly. They were destroyed at the end of the TNO-GC war, and they're involved in the GC-BDE war. I think we can all agree that that will hurt their economies. And by bad shape I mean they're not going to be able to finance another war anytime soon. They're citizens aren't starving, but those subfactions will have to cut spending in some areas.
1.1) The Cren Alliance, though suffering losses from the BDE War, has made a large profit off it's wartime production. Hence, it's economy is much better than Azguard or the Provinces. However, it still feels the taxation burden that the subfactions in Point 2 feel, though that is expected to balance out in the near future.
2) The other subfactions of the GC - Onyxian Commonwealth, Serendivus (?), Contegorian Confederation, Gestalt Colonies, and Outposts - are feeling the effects of a slightly higher tax and are having a tad more trouble than usual finding cash to pay for stuff. This is not to say that their economies are bad, but they are having to pay a slightly increased tax, perhaps send relief supplies to certain areas, etc. Nothing major.
3) The first group of subfactions will also be feeling strapped for top-notch soldiers and ships, since the best would have been used against BDE. This doesn't mean that there aren't still good soldiers in these militaries, but there aren't as many and they aren't the very best.
4) The other subfactions haven't lost any of their military might in the current conflict with BDE, so point three does not affect them.
5) TNO recognizes that it's economy is not on top of its game as well, since Corise does have a good point about the number of SSD-class ships we're using. This will find its way into some IC posts and will have an effect IC.
6) TNO's slave labor does have its downfalls, and this will also have an IC effect.
7) As for Spheres of Influence, they exist. However, since the planets in question are not actually owned, they do not have an effect on economies or militaries except as far as volunteer soldiers go. No conscription, no taxation, etc.
8) TNO will do much more work developing their economy and will dedicate more threads specifically for that purpose. That way we don't get into the "GC does legwork and TNO assumes" debate.
9) TNO recognizes the loose nature of GC. However, in that case, GC must also recognize said nature and RP accordingly. Or both recognize that GC is a tight-knit federation. But one or the other becomes constant. Personally, the only good argument I've seen is Corise's, so I think that's how it should work, but that's only my opinion.
10) Finally, this ends the debate. No more talking about either factions' economy, at least for a while. My head hurts.
Now, if we can all agree on those points (which I think we can, as that seems to be the middle ground here), we can end this thing. So please agree. And go post in the Battlegrounds. Roleplay. That's what this site is for.
1) Portions of the GC economy are in pretty bad shape - namely, the Eastern and Western Provinces, and the Azguard Province - since they've been involved in all GC wars directly. They were destroyed at the end of the TNO-GC war, and they're involved in the GC-BDE war. I think we can all agree that that will hurt their economies. And by bad shape I mean they're not going to be able to finance another war anytime soon. They're citizens aren't starving, but those subfactions will have to cut spending in some areas.
1.1) The Cren Alliance, though suffering losses from the BDE War, has made a large profit off it's wartime production. Hence, it's economy is much better than Azguard or the Provinces. However, it still feels the taxation burden that the subfactions in Point 2 feel, though that is expected to balance out in the near future.
2) The other subfactions of the GC - Onyxian Commonwealth, Serendivus (?), Contegorian Confederation, Gestalt Colonies, and Outposts - are feeling the effects of a slightly higher tax and are having a tad more trouble than usual finding cash to pay for stuff. This is not to say that their economies are bad, but they are having to pay a slightly increased tax, perhaps send relief supplies to certain areas, etc. Nothing major.
3) The first group of subfactions will also be feeling strapped for top-notch soldiers and ships, since the best would have been used against BDE. This doesn't mean that there aren't still good soldiers in these militaries, but there aren't as many and they aren't the very best.
4) The other subfactions haven't lost any of their military might in the current conflict with BDE, so point three does not affect them.
5) TNO recognizes that it's economy is not on top of its game as well, since Corise does have a good point about the number of SSD-class ships we're using. This will find its way into some IC posts and will have an effect IC.
6) TNO's slave labor does have its downfalls, and this will also have an IC effect.
7) As for Spheres of Influence, they exist. However, since the planets in question are not actually owned, they do not have an effect on economies or militaries except as far as volunteer soldiers go. No conscription, no taxation, etc.
8) TNO will do much more work developing their economy and will dedicate more threads specifically for that purpose. That way we don't get into the "GC does legwork and TNO assumes" debate.
9) TNO recognizes the loose nature of GC. However, in that case, GC must also recognize said nature and RP accordingly. Or both recognize that GC is a tight-knit federation. But one or the other becomes constant. Personally, the only good argument I've seen is Corise's, so I think that's how it should work, but that's only my opinion.
10) Finally, this ends the debate. No more talking about either factions' economy, at least for a while. My head hurts.
Now, if we can all agree on those points (which I think we can, as that seems to be the middle ground here), we can end this thing. So please agree. And go post in the Battlegrounds. Roleplay. That's what this site is for.
This is Wes, btw.