Much as I hate to put this into the public spotlight again, I've seen it come up time and time again, and it seems clear to me that TRF needs a mature conversation about, among other things, economics and influence, and how they relate to power. Presumably, this will lend itself to military power, but keep in mind that military groups are not the only type we have here, and the concepts discussed have a broader scope than simply "I have more guns than you!!!"

Jan

But yet the same thing doesn't at all apply to GC when arguing about our economy, right Drayson?

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. If you'd read my last post, you'd have seen that nowhere did I deny that the Coalition (as well as, presumably, every other group on TRF) has a sphere of influence, so to speak. This is made clear in the galaxy map (as seen by BDE's representation) and, frankly, is how TRF has played for as long as I can recall.

This sphere of influence has little to do with the GC's economy, nor with my and other TNO members' arguments about the horrid state of the GC economy.

However, let me reiterate in brief the reasons why a) the GC economy is in shambles, and b) why TNO is, militaristic ally speaking, relatively more powerful.

a)

Following the last War, the GC was stripped to the bones. TNO took all of its major production facilities, tore its fleet apart, and took many of its worlds. Obviously, this is going to have a negative economic effect.

Following that peace, Dolash immediately set about revamping the entire GC fleet. If we use real life as an example, we see how expensive research and development can be. This, coupled with the rebuilding of the GC after the War (that is, repairing their damaged worlds etc.) will obviously, once again, have a negative economic effect.

Then, the GC got itself in another major war, this time with BDE. Again, war and the resulting rebuilding costs money.

Those, Jan, are the arguments as to why the GC's economy is in shambles. I have not seen a formed argument against any of these points, just denials that your economy is anything short of stellar. What I have seen are attempts to confuse the argument against the GC's economy, as above.

b)

Speaking from a military perspective, and to put it very shortly, TNO's military is more powerful per capita, because:
1. TNO is a military dictatorship that pours a vast amount of resources into its armed forces
2. Economies of scale: TNO controls Fondor, Kuat, Sluis Van, etc. - the major production worlds
3. Slave labour
4. Clone soldiers (TNO controls the major canon cloning centres)

Those are the big four as I remember. Again, I have not seen structured arguments to indicate that the GC even approaches TNO military production.

*shrug*

All that said: I invite criticisms, critique, and discussion of this position. I am, naturally, quite firm in it, but I am also well aware I may have made some omissions in determining it. For example, I believe the GC does make some use of clone soldiers. However, I firmly believe that on a per capita basis, the TNO military machine is much stronger than the GC one, just on the basis of the types of factions the two are. A military dictatorship bent on domination versus a "militaristic" but still democratic Coalition of worlds.

I also firmly believe the GC economy is in the gutter, but am interested in seeing some arguments against that notion.

At any rate, let's keep it above the belt and actually discuss the issues. And whatever other relevant points need to be addressed.

:)

Those, Jan, are the arguments as to why the GC's economy is in shambles. I have not seen a formed argument against any of these points, just denials that your economy is anything short of stellar. What I have seen are attempts to confuse the argument against the GC's economy, as above.

[quote]I also firmly believe the GC economy is in the gutter, but am interested in seeing some arguments against that notion.

Yes, it is true , the NGC's economy was in the gutter, I would argue against it being so now.

I myself have given them a boost, and profits aren't fairing that badly actually thank you very much, things have been ticking along nicely.

Though of course, one alien or corporation does not a complete economy , make...

This does not also factor in the effects of the BDE war, of course.

I'm not going to let myself get drawn into this argument, but I will make the same points (for informational purposes only so you know where we are coming from and not just where you are coming from) as I made last time this argument was made for your 4 main points.



Speaking from a military perspective, and to put it very shortly, TNO's military is more powerful per capita, because:

1. TNO is a military dictatorship that pours a vast amount of resources into its armed forces

-Military democracies can be just as good, as proved by the US being the most powerful military in the world, not North Korea (a military dictatorship which spends 20-25% of its GDP on the military)


2. Economies of scale: TNO controls Fondor, Kuat, Sluis Van, etc. - the major production worlds

- This means nothing. In TRF history, shipyards were NOT any bigger because they were on a cannon production world. They were all the same size for all groups. Once the new rules were made didn't mean that all GC yards shrunk.

3. Slave labour

-conceded. But is slave labour that effective? Didn't think so. So is it a real advantage? That could be debated, if I were planning on sticking around to debate it.

4. Clone soldiers (TNO controls the major canon cloning centres)

- GC has their own cloning centers. Which have been built up for years, ever since the days of the Outer-Rim Federation, possibly since the days of TNA and/or the Duskan League. I'm not sure when TNO ICly started building up their cloning centers, but you know, GC might have had an IC headstart (I don't know, just saying its possible).

So are your 4 major advantages real advantages? Or are they just your opinion and a lack of true knowledge of GC? An interesting idea for you to debate with yourself.

Yes, it is true , the NGC's economy was in the gutter, I would argue against it being so now.

I myself have given them a boost, and profits aren't fairing that badly actually thank you very much, things have been ticking along nicely.

Though of course, one alien or corporation does not a complete economy , make...

This does not also factor in the effects of the BDE war, of course.

One: who are you?

Two: This does not also factor in the effects of the BDE war, of course.

I might be making a stretch... but I'll bet war will have negative effects on the economy. I also doubt one Corporation's influence on the economy of a government the size of the GC.



Jan, either you debate the issue or you don't. Claiming to offer "information" but not wanting to debate it smells to me like you don't really have a point to make, but would rather throw up flak to confuse the issue.

So, I will respond to your points. If you can't rebut them, then I will assume they are true because the purpose of this thread is not argument but rather reasonable debate.

If you are so sure of your position, then you should have no trouble standing up and stating it in a direct and honest manner.

-Military democracies can be just as good, as proved by the US being the most powerful military in the world, not North Korea (a military dictatorship which spends 20-25% of its GDP on the military)

Note that I said "per capita". The USA has an active army of 1.4 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_United_States), and a total strength of 2.6 million; North Korea has an army of 1.2 million (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/northkorea/). However, America has a population of 300 000 000 people. North Korea has a population of 23 million (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/kn.html).

This means that N. Korea's army is 5.2% of its population. America's is 0.0086%.

Granted, there is much more to a military than simply numbers of footsoldiers. However, what this demonstrates is that your claim is false. America's armed forces size is a function of its superior population. If N. Korea's population and army ratio were expanded to match America's population, they would have an army of 15.6 million men. Much larger than that of the USA.

This means nothing. In TRF history, shipyards were NOT any bigger because they were on a cannon production world. They were all the same size for all groups. Once the new rules were made didn't mean that all GC yards shrunk.

It does mean something. When the rules changed, so did everything. Fleets et al. did not remain constant - things changed. The aforementioned worlds, in canon, were major producers of warships. Under the realism doctrine, I see no reason they should cease to be such. If you can offer one, I'd love to hear it.

But I don't think there is one, other than it suites the GC's needs at this time that the advantadge belong to them. I disagree - I think these worlds contribute to TNO's superior production.

conceded. But is slave labour that effective? Didn't think so. So is it a real advantage? That could be debated, if I were planning on sticking around to debate it.

To consider this, let's look at a real life example. Compare the costs of producing an item in the United States, where workers receive fair wages, health benefits, vacation pay, etc. for their work, to producing an item in China or Thailand, where workers are barely paid anything. This is as close to slave labour as we are likely to find for example purposes. Considered how many items carry "made in China" labels, I'm going to say that this sort of labour is highly effective.

GC has their own cloning centers. Which have been built up for years, ever since the days of the Outer-Rim Federation, possibly since the days of TNA and/or the Duskan League. I'm not sure when TNO ICly started building up their cloning centers, but you know, GC might have had an IC headstart (I don't know, just saying its possible).

It was around the time of the Phantom Menace. But thanks for playing.

There's one comparison I can make here, that everyone would hate: Star Trek

In the Star Trek Universe (original Series) where the Federation and the Klingon Empire are at war with one another. the Federation can afford much better living accomidations aboard its ships, its people live in the finer points of life and as well they have the better technologies. The Klingon's on the other hand have to pour their entire economy into their military in order to just equal the might of the Federation power, making their ships and worlds less comfortable by a human standards.

It might not be a topical issuie, but here the Klingon's share a piece of the GC in that where the GC has been broken numerous times, it has consistantly poured its economic and industrial might to get its military back on its feet. All those resources come from somewhere, and thus the equivalent gets taken from somewhere else in the economy. Maybe those fleets are back up to full strength, but somewhere theres prollly an entire system of improvished and starving citizens of the Coalition bucking for a change.

I'm not terribly qualified to debate this, seeing as most of this is before my time. But's that just it. It's been at least a year since the TNO-GC war ended. Like Brandt said, that's some time to work with. Economies can be ruined quickly, but they can also be built up quickly as well. I think the aftermath of World War II shows that economies can be built so that they are even better than before.

I might be making a stretch... but I'll bet war will have negative effects on the economy. I also doubt one Corporation's influence on the economy of a government the size of the GC.

Brandt Enterprises has truly done some outstanding work for the Coalition. Sadly, I've only managed to read one thread about their work for the Coalition. I think there may be more though.

I don't think war and economy aren't directly linked in this. War can be bad for it in some cases, yes. But in other cases, it helps the economy out tremendously. An example of this would be America entering World War II. War means making more things, which means more jobs, and increased industrial development. Closer to our timeline in Real life, I think Haliburton's profits from the war show that it can actually be profitable.

This means that N. Korea's army is 5.2% of its population. America's is 0.0086%.

Granted, there is much more to a military than simply numbers of footsoldiers. However, what this demonstrates is that your claim is false. America's armed forces size is a function of its superior population. If N. Korea's population and army ratio were expanded to match America's population, they would have an army of 15.6 million men. Much larger than that of the USA.

Certainly. That's very true example, but one example doesn't mean it is for all cases. For all that matters, we could look at France and Germany at the start of WW II. France actually was stronger on paper in terms of men and tanks, despite being a democracy, and Germany being a military dictatorship at that time.

It does mean something. When the rules changed, so did everything. Fleets et al. did not remain constant - things changed. The aforementioned worlds, in canon, were major producers of warships. Under the realism doctrine, I see no reason they should cease to be such. If you can offer one, I'd love to hear it.

But I don't think there is one, other than it suites the GC's needs at this time that the advantadge belong to them. I disagree - I think these worlds contribute to TNO's superior production.

This sounds like something that the staff should discuss, mainly because of the switch in rules.

To consider this, let's look at a real life example. Compare the costs of producing an item in the United States, where workers receive fair wages, health benefits, vacation pay, etc. for their work, to producing an item in China or Thailand, where workers are barely paid anything. This is as close to slave labour as we are likely to find for example purposes. Considered how many items carry "made in China" labels, I'm going to say that this sort of labour is highly effective.

Certainly effective in cost and mass production, but how about quality? Does TNO use cheap and easily broken equipment now? Slave labour also tends to be lower than paid workers, no matter how low the wages are for a paid worker. Bear in mind that the standards of living in China is cheaper in comparison to the United States as well. As well, with slave labour, there is a risk of internal sabotage. I doubt that's something TNO wants in its war machine.

It was around the time of the Phantom Menace. But thanks for playing.

I note Kamino and Khomm on the Imperial list. As well, I am under the impression that GC is not using cloning facilities to produce soldiers at the moment. That's from talking to Dolash, because I thought about doing it once.

This is the part where I actually have some decent knowledge. Enter the Confederation.

The Confederation is basically about two things: the military, and the economy. Most of my RPs show the military aspect reasonably well. Most people don't seem to notice the economy parts I include in my takeovers, albeit they're always there. I make sure of that every time I conduct a takeover. And for easy reference, there is generally an entire section devoted to each planet's economy and role within the Confederation within the planet databank.

Most people can take a look at the databank and see this for themselves, so I'm only going to point out the highlights. The first is Metalorn, which is canonically as industrial as any of TNO's major industrial planets, mostly because it was a primary industrial planet of the Empire in the past. But unlike most of those planets within TNO, a good-sized portion (at least half) is civilian operations. That generates a lot of revenue simply in taxes. Another one I'll point out is Genon. Genon, with the help of Stellar Enterprises, has been developed into GC's version of the canonical Thyferra. It's a bacta producing planet. Also a big source of revenue.

I have rped all of this. And I've referred to it in other RPs as well. What makes this interesting to me is this subfaction was produced after the GC-TNO war. This economy isn't crushed, and it's not been shattered by TNO or any other faction. It's an economy that's taken multiple RPs to build.

On the other hand, I have yet to read any TNO threads in which there is any mention of Imperial economy in there at all, albeit perhaps there is, and I just simply haven't seen it. How can say debate TNO's economy being better when it doesn't ever seem to have RPed or developed, whereas GC's has, through the collective efforts of Brandt Enterprises and other members of the Coalition? I know Irtar and Beff has also done work regarding the economies of their own subfactions as well.

Case and point being Thyferra. If I recall correctly, this is a planet that Drayson took in Past, Present, and Future. Yes, I actually read the entire thing. Yet, when I read it, I found no references to Thyferra's economy, except for its past economy, which did not appear to be portrayed as being very good. I have yet to find any work regarding TNO rebuilding Thyferra's commercial infrastructure. Though it wouldn't surprise me if there was, in which case, I gladly stand corrected.

There's also the planet list to look at. I've tallied the planets listed on both sides, and I wouldn't be too surprised if it's off a planet or three, but it currently stands that GC owns 77 planets, TNO has 115. In other words, GC is basically 2/3s the size of TNO.

I believe Jan brought up a point within the Pegasus Mk II thread how unbalanced this was in terms of large capital ships for our given sides. It would appear to be roughly all of GC's large ships in terms of meterage are equivalent to the Four Conqueror-class Battleships built. Now, this is likely going to cancel out in my opinion by GC's losses within the BDE war. But in turn means besides large capital ships, the average sector fleet from either faction will roughly be the same size. Of course, I've heard there is some sort of staff ruling on this as well, in which the strong stay strong, or something like that.

But that's not to say that this is not without substantial cost to TNO. Keeping such massive ships have equally massive maintenance costs, something which GC doesn't suffer from because of the relatively few large capital ships on that scale.

I know I'm forgetting a few things, maybe a helpful Ewok will come along and bash me in the head; then I might remember them, so I can post them later.

Drayson, the reason why I don't want to get in a long debate about it is that I don't come to TRF to argue. I didn't start this debate. I'm trying, just as I did last time this argument happened, to show you that you DON'T know GC very well, certainly as much as you pretend to and therefore give you some information. Also you apparently don't know common sense (for all things, or just ignore it when it suits you) and use and ignore canon as it suits you. But back on the not knowing GC thing, you don't know the details of its history, you don't know the carrying over of assets from various groups, due to alliances and such, that occured. There is so much that happened behind the scenes that you know nothing about. Hell, you don't know anything about Brandt Enterprises and they are a GROUP on the planet list. As for WHO Brandt is, that is a secret (only dolash and brandt know). Though I have some guesses.


Also, never have I tried in these (now three) posts to imply that GC's economy was superior. TNO does have more money at the present time (you're bigger, duh). I was pointing out that some of your ideas are wrong and GC has some of your advantages. However I will not persue this argument, not because I don't have counter points. I do, I just spent a while typing up a long post, but I'm not going to bother posting them. Why? Because arguing with you is pointless. You'll never move off your high horse, which makes arguing with you AS pointless and stupid as trying to teach InuYasha Shanyo what he was doing wrong. And I'm not stupid enough to waste my time and effort to get into a massive argument with you. Because I'd prefer to spend that doing other things, such as finishing up posts, and writing about improving things in GC. Because we do things with our writings to get to certain stages, rather than just claim shit about controlling thousands of systems. As I recall, another person (mentioned in this post) tried to make claim to hundreds of systems and was told he couldn't without the words dedicated to it (as per the rules). Therefore, until you get your words up, you own your OOC planets and that is all. You can ICly claim to have all the shit in the world, but you know, that is called God Moding until you back it up with the word count.

I made a reasonable post in the R&D thread, suggesting this be taken to PMs or AIM and then mentioned the R&D thread to Omnae, and it was promptly closed. I think those who wish to continue this further should take that as a hint and go to PMs or AIM. Or find some locked forum to argue in there until next Christmas.

If you're in a discussion with Drayson, you're going to argue. Accept it.

Sorry Drayson baby, I had to take the shot. You know I love you. But you know its true as well.

Hence why that lost post and this one are me leaving the discussion with drayson.

Omnae

ahh jeeezz...

Leave it alone.