I think we're just trying to establish that the GC economy isn't this ruinous thing that you keep saying, not that it's better than TNO.
Also that discussion sparked from the comment on 'having the thousand planets to have all these ships' that Telan pointed out. Yes, we admit that they're under your sphere of influence. But they AREN'T giving you resources to build your fleet and they AREN'T giving you manpower for said fleet. That's why you take the planet.
Oh Rendy, talking about Trekkie comparisons here...
The GC does in fact have many hardships with their citizens, but right now the citizenry forgives them or willingly sacrafices the benefits for their gods. Now, should the image and faith in their gods be shaken or altered, then you are in some deep doo doo.
EDIT: And I think the main point made about GC being bankrupt is that they can't afford too many more big ambitious projects like the ones that they are currently undertaking.
Jan: you claiming you have points and not providing does nothing to advance this discussion. Whereas Corise was able to present some compelling and certainly relevent points, you're position seems to be "you're wrong, get over yourself", with nothing at all to back up that position.
Which, to me, looks like you have nothing but words. If you're so confident in your position, then share your reasoning. If not, I certainly am not going to agree to this "oh, well, he must have points" ideal of yours.
Sorry.
The big difference I see between the present Gulf War and WW2 (for example) is the scope. Gulf War II is a small-scale conflict by comparison, and there is massive rebuilding going on in Iraq at this moment.
WW2, by contrast, was a total war. I liken the last GC War to WW2, and at the end of it, under the terms of the peace agreement, the GC was crushed. Rebuilding costs would have been enormous alone.
Perhaps someone can correct my history, but none of the European nations (or Japan) crushed by WW2 rebuilt massive military structures within a year or two of the end of the war. None involved themselves in another major conflict (i.e. BDE war) shortly thereafter.
The point about the Confederacy none withstanding, I think the GC's economy is in the shitter. Let us not forget that the BDE war is still ongoing in the Battlegrounds, and to my knowledge, is therefore a current event, not something GC has been rebuilding from. So all of the work the Confederacy, Brandt Enterprises, has been neutralized by this second major conflict.
I will not argue that a government cannot rebuild itself after a war (clearly one can), nor will I argue that the GC has RPed a decent response to the wars.
However: I will say that the GC has been involved in another conflict since. I will also say that the rebuilding process, described in the Visionary series, is still ongoing.
So GC went into a second war at less than the power they were when they went to war with TNO initially.
Granted, I have not read all of the RPs written by the GC about economies et al. But, from the posts I have read, the GC seems to be by and large ignoring entirely the fact that their government is engaged in another major conflict as we speak, and that will clearly drain money from the coffers.
Take Joren attack for example. It is my understanding that the Onxyian Commonwealth did not supply ships to the BDE war, so fine, those ships can be well crewed and trained, etc.
But he describes other subfactions which were involved in the BDE war. Surely their best soldiers would have gone to fight BDE? Their best ships?
Given the massive BDE conflict ongoing, does the GC even have the manpower, money, and willingness to fight another battle against the Empire? After the end of the last war, I would assume not.
It seems to me that the GC forgets these things, because by what I've seen everything is rosy, despite the logical fact that there simply cannot be that much money in the GC coffers.
Fair point. I will point out that Germany had not been a military dictatorship for a significant length of time compared to the Empire, and that they lacked cloning facilities. :) But yes, a democratic state can certainly raise a large army.
I do believe, though, that given the Empire's combination of practices, we have a larger per capita Armed Forces than the GC. The Confederacy and Commonwealth are often cited as examples of militaristic subfactions, but the entire Empire is built on that sort of model.
Again, a fair point. And clearly slave labour comes with its own set of problems and solutions. I do believe TNO's slaves are brainwashed, which will go some length to helping with that particular issue. And again, it is not slave labour by itself, but rather the sum of various parts, that leads to TNO's superior production capabilities, as I see it.
And the rest, which I won't quote just 'cause it's lengthy...
The TNO economy has been developed in a number of places, including (iirc) the taking of Muunilist, the long story behind Arliss Industries, the former Cyronics Industries, and the Endgame: Strengthening the Foundation thread, to name a few. I think one or two of Theren's takeovers dealt with the economy as well.
Certain other worlds were taken for their strategic economical value. Corellia, for example, as a trading post. Others like it.
With regards to Genon, I recall a rule about not creating planets will valuable substances. Whether that still holds true, I don't know. ;)
Corise, you've raised some really good points about the GC economy. :) Why Jan and others have refused to do so, I don't know. I can only imagine because you're the one actually doing the work to which this applies (and I know you have worked hard on your little corner of the Coalition).
So I'm fairly convinced that the GC economy can hold its own. However, I'm still concerned about the portrayal of the GC post two massive wars. From my reading, the GC is as strong today as it was before the first war, which does not make logical sense. The TNO war lost them many worlds and ships, and many more lives. The BDE war, presumably, did the same. Yet here they have not only ships, but (by Joren's description) very well trained and equipped soldiers, to attack TNO with?
Would the GC's democracy even agree to this attack, knowing the backlash caused by the last one?
Can their economy support two wars at once?
Juliux is perhaps the only RPer I have seen portraying the GC in a realistic light: hurting from the constant battles. Everyone else, it seems, ignores the issue entirely. And when I broach it, refuses to discuss it.
So good on you for not only debating it, but offering valid, logical, and well thought out points. I have the feeling we'd make quite a team. If you weren't a dirty alien-loving warmonger. :D
I have no dog in this fight: I don't care who's economy is considered bigger (I'm out to kill you all :p )
I just wanted to point out that rearming from a crushing defeat can re-energize a nation.
After WWI Germany was crushed in a way very analagous to the TNO/GC treaty. Germany was forced to pay reparations that flat-lined their economy, and stripped of any serious military forces. The French occupied the Rhineland (one of Germany's most crucial industrial regions) and prevented the German Army from entering that region.
Anyway, from that dire strait, Germany managed to build the most powerful and efficent military industrial base outside of the United States (basically, the US was larger and had access to more resources.... and wasn't being bombed flat in later years.) The German economy recovered in large part thanks to massive military spending and "dual use factories"... that made farm tractors and/or tanks, etc.
So GC recovering from the TNO war might even be a boon. War spending is notorious for re-energizing an economy (WWII, not FDR, ended the Great Depression in America)
HOWEVER
It should be noted that Germany had managed to finagle its way out of some of the nasties provisions of the Treaty of Versailles. They got a lot of the war reparations canceled (or refused to pay them) when Hitler rose to power... and the French/British folded when the marched back into the Rhineland. Hitler ignored the restrictions placed on German military expenditure, length of his battleships, etc.
I doubt the Empire has been as forgiving. But my point is, recovering from a war is not totally infeasible.
In reference to the BDE war... well the closest parallel would be Germany sending soldiers and equipment to fight in the Spanish Civil War. Not quite the same as TRF history, but somewhat similar.
*FINAL POINT*
All the above history took place in the space of about a decade (Hitler becomes chancellor in 1933.... Germany declares war on Poland in 1939... but turnaround had started a bit before Hitler assumes total control). The GC is trying to do that in a much shorter period of time...
I think we can probably help each other get a better perspective on this. Or at least be able to see things from the other person's point of view.
I can't say I know enough about what happened with the end of GC-TNO. That's probably something I should read up on when I have the time.
Well, the French did with the start of the Vietnam War. The Allies seemed to have kept their militaries reasonably strong because of the Cold War. The Axis powers didn't for treaty reasons and being occupied/defended by the Allied powers.
That's somewhat debatable, only because a lot of this is very vague, at least to my knowledge. I think it's important to realize the subfaction structure of GC. Some GC subfactions are obviously devastated by the GC-TNO war or will be affected by the BDE war. Others, like the Confederation or the Gestalt Colonies, probably aren't, simply because we didn't exist at that time of the GC-TNO war. The Confederation and myself aren't involved with the BDE war, partly because everything for the war was already worked out when I joined, and partly because of trying to fit everything within an overdue time frame.
I would agree, at least for the GC subfactions that existed during this time.
This goes back to GC being formed out of subfactions in my opinion. Obviously yes, subfactions are probably paying taxes to the mainstream government, draining some money as you said. But how big would the tax increases actually be? The ships and crews used in the BDE war, at least from my impression, the ships and crews were already paid for. Obviously maintenance will be costing money, but that's something that every faction, regardless if at war or not, will have to pay for. The only thing I can think of extra money being paid for is for replacements for what's lost during the war.
I think another analogy would be the wars that the US is involved in right now. Granted, I'm not a homeowner or have a full-time job, but taxes didn't seem to substantially increase on the onset of the war in Afghanistan or Iraq. As well, the GC-BDE war can also be related to the Iraq war as being something of a localized war as you've stated above. There aren't many battles actually in place. The only one I can actually think of offhand is at Mon Calamari.
I think Om pointed this out about the Dominator Cruisers being destroyed at Mon Calamari. Rebuilding a war fleet will probably cost a lot of money, that will obviously be a finiancial loss. I suppose taxes could be increased to make up for that or money could be donated for that cause, but where and to whom? The other option is to have BDE make reparation payments for that.
I think this goes back to the subfaction thing again. Perhaps I should liken GC to NATO. Technically, we're all independent governments allied together. Because one nation goes to war for doesn't mean that all of the nations put in an equal amount of force into it. The Coalition forces in Iraq or Afghanistan being an example, where the US is the majority forces being stationed. I don't think the Polish government, being part of this Coalition, is being severely hampered by its involvement in the war. Likewise, I don't see the Confederation or Gestalt Colonies having a lot to do with the war with BDE right now. Thus, I don't think they're really heavily effected by it.
Lol @ the idea of Nazi clone soldiers
You're probably right on the Empire spending more capita than some GC subfactions. The thing is, a lot of GC subfactions seemed to be very militaristic, aside from the ones you've mentioned, the Azgards and Gestalt Colonies come to mind. So by how much is something subject to debate. I don't think there's much or if any evidence that either of us could conjure up to make a specific comparison or ratio.
The brainwashing would make sense with COMPNOR. I'm curious to what you mean by the various parts? The large industrial capacity of Fondor or Kuat, etc? Or are you talking about a general system of thought prevalent within the Empire?
And the rest, which I won't quote just 'cause it's lengthy...
I've read about Arliss Industries, albeit I don't recall that Endgame thread. I'll obviously have to read that sometime. I understand the part about taking certain worlds, but it never came across as being very prevalent to the Empire's economy with the exception of shipyard planets.
With regards to Genon, I recall a rule about not creating planets will valuable substances. Whether that still holds true, I don't know.
Genon is a canon world actually. Stellar and myself wrote something like tne or so posts that developed the bacta producing aspect of it.
I think the BDE war is still somewhat up for grabs on that. Obviously, yes, there will be a lot of destruction in terms of lives and material, but it doesn't appear to be on the scale of the last TNO war (because of the few battles) from what I've read thus far. I think we actually might have gained BDE's Teth fleet intact if I remember correctly.
Overall, I think GC is weaker in some areas after the GC-TNO war. But this goes back to the entire subfaction thing again. Obviously, the Azgards and whoever else that is engaged with the BDE war won't be as strong as when they entered the war originally, but I don't see why subfactions which have very little involvement would be any weaker than before the GC-TNO war, mainly because there's been time to build back up again. I know Joren has built the Onyxian Commonwealth up more, for example.
Whether or not the democracy would agree to it is something that I think would be unanswerable. Perhaps they're angry for the TNO intrusions and want some revenge. It falls down to the motivation of the people and their priorities; something which GC people would obviously decide.
Two full-fledged wars? Probably not. But does one battle count as a war? There is some conflict between TNO and GC, but it doesn't appear to be a war, more like border clashes.
I think Julius is mainstream Coalition though, so that would be realistic for his part with mainstream Coalition forces taking part within the BDE war. But is the rest of Coalition as affected by the war as everyone else within GC is? The Confederation basically has no part in it. Would the Confederation or any other subfaction not involved within the war be constantly hurting? I don't think there would be, namely because those subfactions never even ran the risk of losing anything to start with.
Drayson, even if I did provide the points I wasn't expecting you to listen to them (which was half my post). So I'm saving us both time and effort. You guys can go squabble about your economic stuff all you want. I've got better things to do. The thing about this is from briefly skimming this thread, you're mostly forgetting the fact that this is NOT about the Coalition's economy. For fuck sakes, we didn't even do anything this time, we haven't started a massive new project. This whole thing started with Drayson and/or Telan claiming to control thousands of systems and desinging a new ship to patrol those thousands of systems. And maintaining a fleet to patrol those systems. But you don't control them and get nothing from them. Patrolling thousands of unclaimed systems that do nothing for your empire is probably ridiculously bad for your economy. So have fun doing it. But you don't control them, get nothing from them and are just wasting your money.
Consider the source; this all spawned of my ironic observation in an R&D thread in which I called in to question the redundant and seemingly excessive military spending of the Empire.
Yet now we find ourselves debating and defending the Galactic Coalition economy... again!
Write a fucking story, Drayson.
This thread is futile in its lack of focus.
Does the Empire control thousands of planets? Does the GC have a crumbling economy? Why is TNO better then GC? What colour penis do you like best? Do I look fat in this dress?
In the literal sense of having possession of them OOCly? No. In the sense of having an influence on those planets, to where we could control what happens to them unless they comply with us, ICly? Yes.
Does GC have a crumbling economy? No, but with the vast expenditures of late, they would be racking up a huge galatic debt soon. Whether or not anyone collects on that, who knows?
Why is TNO better than GC? Our warships are badass, our leaders are sexy, and we pwn on the battlefield.
What colour penis do you like best? One that is a nicely tanned skin color.
Do I look fat in this dress? Hmm, let's see, smart answer or dumb answer. Smart answer. No.
If upheld, I just want everyone to know, I will fully exploit and abuse this unwritten rule to the extent that when people recall the deeds of Xilen, they will say, "Yeah, but he's no Beff. That's for sure."
