The BDE - GC War OOC Thread
Posts: 551
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 3:23am
Two points:

a)The dreadnaught is known as an old ship that isn't as capabal as "modern" ships. I seriously doubt it would be atmospheric capable, it's considered an old clunky ships, especially after a battle without any shields and hull damage.

b)Turbolasers fire short bursts. You're not drilling anything. You could penetrate but not far. The necessary heat and energy maybe there but not anything to sustain it. You'd waste it all vaporizing the first meter.
Posts: 7745
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 3:56am
Concerning drilling, read TF.net's commentary on Base Delta Zero
Posts: 4025
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 4:17am
There are several novel references for the ability of turbolasers to drill through tough surfaces. Take for example, I believe it was DFR, where Thrawn destroyed a solid rock coral cave entrance several fathoms underwater to prevent the escape of the Coral Vanda. Then there was the Bacta War, where turbolaser strikes from the Freedom drilled deeply into the Lusankya, while her decks may not be solid mass, her hull armour is pretty thick.

And if Base Delta Zero can be executed inside of an hour by an single ISD, then a dreadnought should have no problem drilling a deeper area of 600 meters within a few minutes time period.
Posts: 383
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 4:18am
a)The dreadnaught is known as an old ship that isn't as capabal as "modern" ships. I seriously doubt it would be atmospheric capable, it's considered an old clunky ships, especially after a battle without any shields and hull damage.


Timothy Zhan certainly disagrees. Thrawn used Dreadnaughts very effectively (both in space and in the atmosphere) through-out the Original Thrawn trilogy.


b)Turbolasers fire short bursts. You're not drilling anything. You could penetrate but not far. The necessary heat and energy maybe there but not anything to sustain it. You'd waste it all vaporizing the first meter.


That seems a like a blatant rationalization with no spport to back it up. Any evidence, or cannonical support of any kind?
Posts: 5387
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 4:50am
Gue?
Posts: 4195
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 4:56am
Are all these ships atmospheric ships? Are the dreadnaughts floating over the ground that covers over the underground city? And if so, is Dolash firing on the dreadnaughts from orbit (with his 6 frigates and 4 battlecruisers and whatnot)?


If so, then Dolash isn't just hitting the Dreadnaughts. With that much firepower coming down, he's shooting everything around the place (which seems to be entrance tunnels into whatever city is under the ground).


I think fire from the attacking dreadnaughts is the least thing on the civies minds right now.

With tremendous firepower coming down, the hive is probably splitting, massive tunnel cave-ins and splitting. Because for a city, you have to assume that there is a fragile network of tunnels that were first made by the Kubini and then enlarged upon for Azguards and other Coalition people to use as well as get mechanical machinery (if any) down below.

Even if there is simply fire from the dreadnaught, indirect crumbling of the city with ground shifts, quakes and the like would have city inhabitants frantic for emergency measures in simply survival?

This would also, hinder efforts for attackers to move through the tunnels though I doubt Azguard defenders in the tunnels would remain in one place. I mean the greater threat is the city being smashed up by friendly and enemy fire.
Posts: 171
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 5:45am
Dolash
I'm pretty sure they keep the bugs in hives, which they keep with them. I don't contest that you could blow a hole in the earth, I just think that you couldn't do it with a dreadnought in a single turn while under heavy fire - not to mention then landing the dreadnought on the hole and beginning an attack on the city.

Let me clarify something - the Azguards left a battlegroup defending Kubindi. A battlegroup is made up of 4 battlecruisers and 12 frigates, plus support and fighters. Now, assuming that they send, say, six frigates to avoid too much overcrowding, that means your two unshielded dreadnoughts are under direct, close-range bombardment, and if your turbolasers could drill through many meters of earth, rock, and any reinforcement placed by the Kubindi, imagine how much of your ship my turbolasers could drill through in the same time?

If you had air-cover, or more ships to split my fire, or I had less ships, or you gave it another turn to drill all the way through, that'd make more sense. I know I've done things in a hurry before, and certainly the risky-er maneauvers are cooler, and I hate shooting down a gamble on basis of technicality, since half the time that's my favourite way to get things done, because it's those dangerous gambles that make stories exciting.

However, this isn't a gamble, or a grand push of effort - you want to attack my city, kill my civilians, and generally cause me problems to slow me down without providing a compelling reason, or a cunning plan, or a super-risky dramatic plan, you just say your drill through the ground and start shooting. As trying to do that would get you killed, and you provide no character-motivated heroic (or perhaps in this case, villanic) effort or gamble that would make this any more plausible.

In the end, my argument comes back to the point that you're under overwhelming fire here. For your ship to tear up enough land to get to the city would take longer than it would take us to tear up your unshielded, not maneauvering dreadnought. I'm open to characterful actions overcoming the odds, or some cunning plan, but you've offered neither.

Dolash, pardon me, but you aren't the Union so don't tell me what the hell I'm doing. You don't seem the read the post deeply enough to realize I am doing something. All you think is I'm trying to cause as much collateral damage and possible. Well guess what? Maybe I am, but I have a much deeper purpose besides killing a lot of civies. Ever heard the saying a method to his madness? Well I've got a method and you won't find out just what it is until its too late.

As for my ship, its put all its power to its shields, even life support is gone on it. You seem to forget. Also, I don't care if you blow it up. So even if the shields fail, your blasts will then just start melting through the hull as I keep pouring soldiers in. Go ahead and do that to. Know why? I don't care. I'm the freaking bad guy. I don't give a damn about my ships or my men. All that matters is what I've got up my sleeve. So get used to dealing with a real bad guy, one whose willing to sacrifice everything.

PS. There's no need for motivation or herioc/villainous action when you have soldiers who will keep fighting even when you blow their limbs off. Ever seen or read how battle droids attack? They don't stop. ever. That's how necrotroopers are so get used to that as well, you'll be seeing more of them sooner or later.
Posts: 551
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 7:16pm
Even if the ship is able to enter atmosphere that's not quite the same thing as landing. Also, it probably can't enter atmosphere if it's hull integrity is even slightly damaged.
Posts: 4291
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 8:24pm
I've dealt with true villains before, Estro, you are not the first - and I don't doubt that it would provide an advantage to you that you are willing to make ridiculous sacrifices and take great damage in the achievment of your goals, but you have failed to address my primary argument. It doesn't quite matter if your Necrotroopers would keep fighting until they are reduced to their very base atoms, if the ship explodes before it can cut through the earth, then there's no way for your forces to launch their attack. I put forth the opinion that your ship would explode before they would be able to, because of just the sheer weight of fire being levelled on them.

I make exceptions and bend the odds for heroic things, or characterful things, or villanic things, if there is room for random chance - A grenade going off at the feet of the common soldier would kill him dead, sure, but what if it is a heroic character who hurled himself on the grenade to save his loved one? Maybe he is found dying, instead, and later saved by a miracle of medical science - or something otherwise cool.

However, there is no such room for maneauvering in this post, it's just a matter of sheer time. You can't have your shields up because you deployed ground troops, meaning you lowered your shields to let them out. An unshielded warship under fire from such overwhelming fire as this would be dust before it could possibly drill through the very crust itself. That is my case, and it remains unaddressed.

*EDIT* Whoops, I see you did indeed initiate shields. No matter, though that would certainly improve your defences, a single Dreadnought would not last long enough to make this hole and deploy an army, I would say. That you could cave in the tunne entrance to a fortified metropolis in a single attack is equally improbable.

*EDIT 2* Saying "No Matter" rocks.
Posts: 4025
  • Posted On: Feb 15 2006 8:42pm
Dolash, are your Claymores in the atmosphere of the planet or are they firing from orbit?