Pegasus-class Star Destroyers

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Pegasus-class Star Destroyers

Posts: 2462

Jan Dondana

Just a random observation/comment, but isn't it a little hypocritical that Kach is complaining about Corise, commanding the military of a militaristic government spanning 9 planets, having several Pegasus Star Destroyers when he wants to have a fleet of minimum 9 Victory Star Destroyers for his Smugglers Alliance which would only have "Shadow Ports" or something like that to supply the fleet? And has argued the feasibility of his planned fleet for a long time and suposedly has perfectly feasible reasons for why an alliance of smugglers, none who would be likely to have any experience with large warships, could capture 9 Victory Star Destroyers, crew them and continue to operate them, where as apparently there is a problem with a government doing the same. And wouldn't it also be hypocritical for Drayson to be arguing so hard about Corise's ships, but not caring about the fleet that the Smuggler's Alliance would have? Makes you wonder if Kach and Drayson really care (or doubt) about the validity of Corise's fleet or if they just want to find a way to weaken their opponent using whatever means possible.

Several things, before I bother rebuting any of those points:

1) I've already accepted Corise's fleet numbers as they stand, and I'm arguing from a purely theoretical standpoint now (as I've mentioned).

2) I have no idea what this "Smuggler's Fleet" thing is.

3) TNO does not need to "weaken" Corise or the GC. Trust me on this - if they were to go to war, whether Kashan has five Star Destroyers or one would make very little difference in the grand scheme of things. Which implies to me, Jan, that your comment was little more than a snide assault on my character.

Now, about your Smuggler fleet or whatever.

There is a huge, huge difference between building a ship from scatch and capturing one from an enemy. Building the ship takes incredible resources and manpower and time.

If you care to notice, Jan, the single largest issue anyone has raised with Corise's stated fleet is not that he has managed to build it, but how quickly he has done so. As I pointed out to Beff, it takes a significant ammount of time to build a ship. Time I did not feel had passed IC.

Beff Pike

Posts: 5711

Drayson...

That said, there is no "relative proof" in this matter, as you well know.

Actually, yes there is. Only, as far as I can tell, it does not work to your advantage in this matter. And it comes in the form of In Character story work. Were you to deconstruct the viability of Kashan having X number of ships based on what has or has not been posted In Character I would be more interested in the points raised.

It's fine if you want to debate this on an abstract, theoretical plane; but understand that it has no bearing on the fundamental work in question. Theory and Application.

Common sense, which as I have said several times now, dictates that no matter how you look at it, it takes time to build anything. You cannot have one Star Destroyer one day and five the next. By asking for "relative proof", you are arguing the basic premise that it takes time to build something.

One; we are not talking about one day to the next so lets stay away from the excessive embellisment. And strikes to the core of the issue; how much time are we talking about? That in turn relates to my comment above regarding supportive "proof".

Two; by asking for relative proof I am only asking for such information as relates to this scenario not a general and principal ruling which will then be applied to all of TRF. This is situational and requires situational evidence.

Three; Common Sense says that you need to stfu and stop debating the plausibility of numbers which you have just amitted to having previously accepted. The motivations behind Kach posting this thread, I think, are probably somewhat different then your motivation for continuing to debate the issue.

TRF does not ask for documentation of every function of government (and good thing ), and instead applies a common sense logic to most things (as you yourself point out, in big, capital letters).

It is not asked for, but it is expected of a combative (fleeting) element. For those things which you mention are the very points upon which the outcome of many a conflict has been based. Common Sense says, among other things, that if you don't have the sense to cover your ass, don't be suprised when someone shoves their finger in and says "Gotcha". And the point is that Corise has taken the time to highlight these very issues in his threads and this debacle (don't kid yourself) exists only to piss all over that work. So before anyone goes faulting him for having _ starships, the least you could do is the leg work.

So before we go on, let's see the fundamental information that would indicate that Corise is extending himself too far?

Jan Dondana

Posts: 2453

I guess it is understandable that you might not know about Kach's Smugglers Alliance fleet thing, so we'll take out the part about you arguing about Corise's fleet as being hypocritical from my last post. The matter stands that Kach should not be arguing this.

EDIT: The rest of what I had largely was mentioned by Beff.

Beff Pike

Posts: 5711

Here's a neat point, hardly even ties into the thread, but I figured I deserved a little digression; Corise can name and recall almost the entire Kashan fleet by name, command, and adventure. Even in days without beancounting he has woven a such a fleet.

Can anyone else really say the same? I think that's pretty neat.

Demosthenes X

Posts: 2462

Beff Pike

Two; by asking for relative proof I am only asking for such information as relates to this scenario not a general and principal ruling which will then be applied to all of TRF. This is situational and requires situational evidence.

This is exactly where your argument falls apart. While they're are situational factors that will affect, in this case, production time, there remains a bare minimum time it takes to do something.

Even in an incredibly efficient production line, there is still a limit as to how quickly a task can be accomplished.

And this is something you are not taking into account, simply put. We reach a point when Corise's writing becomes irrelevent. Let's say we accept that Kashan is incredibly efficient at producing these Star Destroyers (doubtful, for a number of reasons, but I digress).

There is still a minimum ammount of time it will take to create one.

You contend that enough time has passed that they have been able to produce four such ships (neverminding the plethora of other vessels they are producing).

I disagree. I cannot, as you well know, provide any hard evidence because TRF does not have a function to do so. All I can do is point out that, logically, it takes time to build ships. Omnae voiced the same concern: that just because Corise types 5000 words, takes a planet, and says "we're building an army" does not make it so.

Time still has to pass, on an IC level, for this to happen.

Otherwise I could form a new group and in the span of a week take 100 planets, and at the end of it claim to be as powerful as the Empire.

Beff Pike

Posts: 5711

The tricky part here is that you're using the same 'rules' to argue against the issue that I am going to use to support it.

If your group owns ten planets, and has thus far had all its stories and expansion themed around the military, then you could have a sizable fleet and NPC army at your command (and by sizable we mean maybe three or four Star Destroyers and accompanying craft. See below for more info on fleet sizes).

Kashan, as a sub-faction of the Galactic Coalition, lays claim to nine and enjoys the benefit of belonging to the second largest faction in the TRF Galaxy.

You contend that enough time has passed that they have been able to produce four such ships (neverminding the plethora of other vessels they are producing).

My contention has nothing to do with "time" in any sense other then as defined by the written material itself.

This is exactly where your argument falls apart. While they're are situational factors that will affect, in this case, production time, there remains a bare minimum time it takes to do something.

Even in an incredibly efficient production line, there is still a limit as to how quickly a task can be accomplished.

Incorrect. See the rules. See TRF history. See "Challanging The Paradigm" on PBS. Leaving that aside, as noted above, previously my contention relates to written and posted material of which none has yet been cited.

I cannot, as you well know, provide any hard evidence because TRF does not have a function to do so.

It sure do. It's just not so cut and clear and posted with meter counts and daily updates, it's found in the content posted by the author. See above.

Otherwise I could form a new group and in the span of a week take 100 planets, and at the end of it claim to be as powerful as the Empire.

Yes, you could. And that's part of what makes TRF great. I find it funny that you use TNO as your example of 'powerful'.

See rule #1.

Adress my actual contention, Drayson.

Time still has to pass, on an IC level, for this to happen.

Exactly.

Demosthenes X

Posts: 2462

Beff Pike

Exactly.

Which means you're willfully ignoring my point. But that's fine. Have a nice day.

Jan Dondana

Posts: 2453

Time has passed on an IC level. 5-6 months. And according to Kach, we could build a Pegasus in 4 months. Perhaps Kashan's shipyards could or could not produce multiple Star Destroyers at once, I don't know and I won't bother getting into that aspect, because GC does have the capability of building the ships for them. Kashan is fast expanding and controls some strategic planets, we'd obviously contribute to their military defence force to ensure that they can defend the planets they take, and especially, hold onto their strategic planets. Also, as I recall, they joined us to get added military protection, so we'd obviously give it to them in the way of credits for their ships and actual ships and such.

Corise Lucerne

Posts: 1865

Wow. I'll try to get to most of these points when I have the time (I have to get to class in several minutes).

The argument that sticks out the most to me is that the Confederation does not have the resources to build such a fleet. I'm going to point out that there are numerous threads not only state what the Kashan Industrial machine is, but even provide the background of how they came about and why. That's just with Kashan itself. Now the Confederation has had Metalorn for several months now, and that planet was one of the few largest industrial worlds during the height of the Empire during the Galactic Civil War. Indeed, Metalorn was a huge industrial powerhouse for the CIS during the Clone Wars as well. That's a significant amount of industry to add onto the other ones explained and described already under Confederation control. More to come later.

Demosthenes X

Posts: 2462

Jan, why are you so eager to denounce Kach when it suits you, and yet now cite his own argument as evidence in your favour?

The point is not strictly time taken to build one Star Destroyer. If the Kashan yards were focused soley on building these ships, yes, you could produce a couple in a six month period.

But Corise is also producing a huge number of other ships.

Once again, it does not come down to a question of resources, but to one of time. Which nobody has yet addressed, save for Beff, to some extent.

Now, obviously if the Coalition is assisting Kashan, that changes things. But from the (albiet limited) reading I've done, that does not appear to be the case. Kashan appears very independent within the Coalition, and there is nothing I've seen to indicate that the GC has been subsidizing production, nevermind producing Kashan ships in their own yards.

Kashan is fast expanding and controls some strategic planets, we'd obviously contribute to their military defence force to ensure that they can defend the planets they take, and especially, hold onto their strategic planets. Also, as I recall, they joined us to get added military protection, so we'd obviously give it to them in the way of credits for their ships and actual ships and such.

Is all of that specifically outlined in character? Because, based on previous GC opinions, "obviously" and "logically" is not good enough.

Nevermind that six months (assuming we accept that figure) is an awfully short ammount of time for a ship to go from theroetical R&D stages to mass production.

Again, it takes time to adjust yards to build these ships, train workers, program droids, and so on.

Now, what I would like to know is why this issue is still up for debate. I clearly said - more than once - that I am willing to go ahead and continue the RP with the current number of Pegasus SD's (five).

My other points apply on a grander theoretical level. And because, as you all well know, I'm a stubborn bastard.