While all of this seems to be centered around Kashan, lets not forget that Kashan is part of GC. And GC is large. And can help out with providing crews, training, money and even building the ships for them (remember that GC owns many planets which at TRF have become home for very large shipyards even though in canon they may not have been). The Contegorian Confederation is largely handling things on their own in the foreground, but behind that is the backing that GC would give to any member nation. This seems to be something that has largely been discounted in all of the arguments.
Well that would depend on when his next fleet battle is. If it happens ICly tomorrow, then yeah, I could see an issue if he did, but I feel confident that he would not do that. If it happens in 5 months, that's another matter all together.
The comparison to the United States during WW2 is an unfair one. The USA - and the world - were in a state of total war at that point. That meant that every facet of their industry and life was directed into producing weapons of war. As I pointed out above, that is not the case with Kashan.
Jan: the GC's financial contribution does not make it any less true that it takes time to build ships and train their crews. Simply put, I do not believe that Kashan can physically be building and fielding ships at this pace.
That is a valid concern, however; I do not feel that it factors into the motivation behind the posting of this thread. Corise has demonstrated no problems to that effect as of yet and I see this simply as an excuse to assault Corise from an Out Of Character stand-point by a member who has previously demonstrated a desire and ability to attack Corise on those very grounds previously. As such I see no conclusive reason why anyone in this thread should consider themselves in a position to saction, OOC none-the-less, the actions of another member (in this case, Corise). And that strikes at the core of the issue, so thank you for bringing it up Drayson.
I know Corise rather well and, opinions about myself not withstanding, can offer you my assurances that I will keep an eye on the situation. I believe that Corise values my opinion; as we often exchange ideas and should such a problem arise I would certianly advise him in what I percieved to be the best course of action.
In this case I advise that Corise make no accomodations on the current issue of starships present or possible. As noted above by Drayson, I do have some personal bias in this matter and as such will reserve my posts as speculation and not the active opinion of a Moderator (thusly removing myself from the Staff Mediation process should that be the circumstance). My own motivation for this course of action is twofold; It protects the work I have done with Gestalt which challenges this porported paradigm far more extensively then Corise has, and it protects TRF from regressing to the days of penis-measuring contests with imaginary starships.
To support your claims that the Confederation could not manage such a force in so much time I would suggest you confine your points to In Character material relevant to the point be it in exploit or compliment.
The burden of proof, as I estimate, lies on the shoulders of Kach and his supporters while the burden of defense falls upon Corise and I can assure you this, Corise will be able to quote his own In Character work to support his claim of such a fleet.., are you prepared to begin the task of sifting through his pages and pages of writing to try and find the flaw that supports your proclimation?
And then, if you do; do you not have the obligation to apply such rigourus inspection to all of TRF?
Again, I advise you all; leave it alone and progress with what you have so far. After all, it would be a first for such a Fleet thread to conduct itself with less then two pages of OOC Bullshit.
A valid argument again, but one that can be applied to any faction... TNO inclusive. Does TNO's contribution make it any less true that it takes time to build starships?
If you do not believe that Kashan has the ability to do what it has clearly done, as I stated above, prove it.
Otherwise I fear that we may be alluding to some bizzare and totally incomprehensible double standard.
I apologize anew. I had not factored in time. Ill be honest, I have not read the thread yet. If there is a passage of time, then yes, it feasible for said ships to be moved into position if IC reasons dictate it.
We're talking on a purely theoretical level now, but TNO's time to construct one Star Destroyer of the same size would be smaller for several good reasons:
1) Economy of scale
TNO controls the largest production facilities in the galaxy. These are whole swaths of space dedicated to producing military warships of massive size. TNO is always building Star Destroyers, and lots of them - economics shows that the more of something you build, the cheaper and more efficiently it can be done (to a limit, obviously).
2) Manpower
TNO has a great resource in slave labour that Kashan, for this example, cannot reproduce. Simply put, they are limited by the natural limits of their situation. Yes, the Coalition can contribute personelle. Yes, they can use automation. But the Empire has another element entirely in slave labour.
3) Government
TNO is a military dictatorship. The government does not attempt to interfere in the construction of military hardware. In the Coalition, as a democracy, there will always be dissent and red tape that slows down production.
But like I say, that's a theoretical excersize. I have no problem with Kashan having, say, five PSDs, as long as we all understand that these ships do take time to deploy, and they do not grow on trees simply on the basis of planets being taken.
There is far more involved in a military machine than the ammount of territory under one's thumb: especially in a democracy.
And I'm fine with TNO having _____ number of _____ type of starship as long as you "understand that these ships do take time to deploy, and they do not grow on trees simply on the basis of planets being taken."
What I am saying is that, like any bridge, this goes in two directions. Whatever you feel fit to impose upon Corise is fine as long as you understand that it is entirely within his right to do the same.
And I'd like to speak to your points as noted above; They're great but you utterly fail to account for the downside of those so-called advantages. The good must be taken with the bad.
Speaking to Slave Labor; we have the propensity for immensly under-spec work, certianly not the quality you get out of a highly positivly motivated work force. And that's just one downside of using forced labor.
Speaking to Man Power; welcome to Star Wars. This is, after all, fiction of the scientific sort and if you do the research you'll find that yes, Corise is not just some dumb noob and that he has, in fact, taken the time to adress this in his stories and his R&D submissions. Man Power can be a clear advantage, but again in typical fashion, you're not allowing for the pitfalls of an immense labor force as relates to the actual production of goods.
Speaking to Goverment; a dictatorship often has the ability to act with unilateral authority that is denied a Democracy due to the whole process of representation and so on. Again, however, any dictatorship comes rife with its own flaw which many TNO authors (Drayson inclusive) have taken great time and measure to detail... In this situation I agree that a strong military dictatorship would generally have the ability to force the production of more extensive military assets during peace-time. It's a clear advantage and one that extends to Corise as well, had you taken the time to examine the Kashan system of goverment which is at times as close as you can get to Military-based Democracy.
And again, Drayson, as you seem to have taken up the gauntlet of prosecuting this debacle; I ask you to provide relative proof to sustain your argunment as it pretains to the Kashans and the Coalition, not a generalized approach to why TNO is teh uber badass and Corise can suck a lamb.
Just a small point I'd like to add. I seem to recall from Corise's earlier writings that the Kashan are a very militarized people. Therefore it goes to follow that a higher proportion of their population would be in the military, less red tape, less dissent etc. etc. than say the rest of the coalition.
Just a random observation/comment, but isn't it a little hypocritical that Kach is complaining about Corise, commanding the military of a militaristic government spanning 9 planets, having several Pegasus Star Destroyers when he wants to have a fleet of minimum 9 Victory Star Destroyers for his Smugglers Alliance which would only have "Shadow Ports" or something like that to supply the fleet? And has argued the feasibility of his planned fleet for a long time and suposedly has perfectly feasible reasons for why an alliance of smugglers, none who would be likely to have any experience with large warships, could capture 9 Victory Star Destroyers, crew them and continue to operate them, where as apparently there is a problem with a government doing the same. And wouldn't it also be hypocritical for Drayson to be arguing so hard about Corise's ships, but not caring about the fleet that the Smuggler's Alliance would have? Makes you wonder if Kach and Drayson really care (or doubt) about the validity of Corise's fleet or if they just want to find a way to weaken their opponent using whatever means possible.
I never said that TNO is "better" than Corise. More powerful, larger, with a larger fleet, yes. But not infalliable and, on a fundemental level, not better.
That said, there is no "relative proof" in this matter, as you well know. TRF does not ask for documentation of every function of government (and good thing :)), and instead applies a common sense logic to most things (as you yourself point out, in big, capital letters).
Common sense, which as I have said several times now, dictates that no matter how you look at it, it takes time to build anything. You cannot have one Star Destroyer one day and five the next. By asking for "relative proof", you are arguing the basic premise that it takes time to build something. And no matter how you cut it, it will take IC time to construct something. We can debate the semantics of how long, but I really can't be bothered.
I've accepted that TRF has no fixed IC timeline and that Kashan may well have managed to build several Star Destroyers.
