I'm very sure you looked up the word beforehand to make sure you were getting across exactly what you meant. Ah, the value of hindsight, eh?

Kas...

No. Just no. I don't care who you are. You don't hold a pro-gun rally in a town that has just witnessed one of the most terrible acts of youth violence in history ten days after it happened. You say "Out of respect for those who have lost their lives, we have cancelled the Littleton rally."

Kas. Marylin Manson - you know, the one the right likes to blame Columbine on, cancelled FIVE shows out of respect for those killed in Littleton. I'm quite certain that his tour was planned well in advance, and thousands of people had bought tickets already.

Don't try to justify the NRA's coming to Littleton.

And I'm not entirely sure what your point was about his "cold dead hands" remark. I simply said that he is a man who said that you can pry my gun from my cold dead hands... it doesn't matter when or where he said it, it's a very obvious indicator that the guy likes guns. Hey, whaddaknow?

Conservative websites like "Bowling For Truth" try to spin the story (much the way you claim Moore does). For example, this statement:

The film depicts NRA president Charlton Heston giving a speech near Columbine; he actually gave it a year later and 900 miles away.

That is true of the first line, and only the first line (that being the "cold dead hands" remark. The rest of the speech is the one he gave in Littleton. See, Kas? Now, I expect a full out attack on Bowling For Truth for shading their story in such a fashion!

It's quite clear that Moore did not intend to combine these speeches and pass them off as one. Certainly, he may have allowed people to have thatn impression, and could have put a subtitle in one or both of them. But he is not so foolish as to try and pass off two obviously seperate displays as one. Note that the "cold dead hands" came before the rest - it serves clearly as an introduction to Heston, in one of his most infamous moments. So people will recognize this guy. Get it?

Charelton Heston is the guy who gave a speech that was largely an attack on the Mayor of Denver, and even the people of Denver ("I'm sorry for the newspaper ads saying the same thing, don't come here. This is our country. As Americans, we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land.")

In a situation that he could have used to speak out against gun violence, speak out against mishandling guns, and perhaps use some of his organization's influence to promote gun safety, he instead said things like "It implies that you and I and 80 million honest gun owners are somehow to blame, that we don't care." As if an organization that publicizes how great guns are isn't even a tiny bit responsible for more people having guns. That fact that 80 million gun owners live in America (that's twice the population of Canada, and more than many other countires as well) is a testement to how bad things have become.

Oh, and Kas? We all know that the NRA does have programs that encourage safe use of guns. But in the one speech that every American was sure to see, he didn't say a word about using guns safely. That says something right there.

Don't presume to lecture me on homework and the spinning of stories. You know full well that the Right does that and more on an everyday basis. Hell, they outright lie when it comes down to it.

To close, a quote:

The second half of your post is an ignorant statement made by a flaming.. wanna-be. You would do good to not state such ignorant things; because you leave yourself wide open to being dissected by anyone who would wish to cut you apart.

Its' really hard to argue with people like Kas, because you get the feeling that you're definetly correct, and you also get the feeling that he feels that he is definetly correct. However, you have the feeling that he is wrong, and yet he does too. Now, you know you're right, but he 'knows' he's right, and can argue well enough to keep himself unbeaten. Its' like arguing the colour of the sky to a colour-blind individual, after a while, you have to ask yourself if maybe everyone else are the ones that are seeing things wrong, and its' the colour-blind people who're seeing things as they are, but all you have to do is look at the facts to know you're right. Its' that sort of argument.

Yeah. Except it's quite clear that 12 000 die by use of guns in the United States every year. And it's clear to most people that that's a problem.

Kas...

No. Just no. I don't care who you are. You don't hold a pro-gun rally in a town that has just witnessed one of the most terrible acts of youth violence in history ten days after it happened. You say "Out of respect for those who have lost their lives, we have cancelled the Littleton rally."

Derrr... Well, let's recap the facts, again, because you skimmed them, I guess... As taken from Truth about Bowling. Pay attention to the second point.

Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.

Fact: At Denver, the NRA cancelled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' voting meeting -- that could not be cancelled because the state law governing nonprofits required that it be held. [No way to change location, since under NY law you have to give 10 days' advance notice of that to the members, there were upwards of 4,000,000 members -- and Columbine happened 11 days before the scheduled meeting.]

Basically, the NRA couldn't cancel without being in breach of NY law.

t's quite clear that Moore did not intend to combine these speeches and pass them off as one. Certainly, he may have allowed people to have thatn impression, and could have put a subtitle in one or both of them. But he is not so foolish as to try and pass off two obviously seperate displays as one.

Really now? I suggest you take a look at this page which is a side-by-side comparison of Heston's real speech, and what Moore showed in BFC.
Discraceful. It can't be called anyting but a lie.

It's like what I told Dolash on AIM: [20:29] AmishForkFight: Here, I'll give it plain. If I say: "I really don't like you that much Dolash, but it's not like I hate you" and you edit my text to say "I really hate you, Dolash" that is called lying, not creative editing.

Charelton Heston is the guy who gave a speech that was largely an attack on the Mayor of Denver, and even the people of Denver ("I'm sorry for the newspaper ads saying the same thing, don't come here. This is our country. As Americans, we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land.")

Check the last link I gave you. This is a splice, Heston did not say that, Moore edited Heston's speech to make him say that. Remember that Indiana Jones thingy Ahnk posted? Like that.

That fact that 80 million gun owners live in America (that's twice the population of Canada, and more than many other countires as well) is a testement to how bad things have become.

HOLY CRAP OWNING A GUN MAKES YOU EVIL!

Gee. Has it become that bad?

Yeah. Except it's quite clear that 12 000 die by use of guns in the United States every year. And it's clear to most people that that's a problem.

According to Nationmaster, 1999 had 8,259 murders by firearms. It's dated, but it's the best I could find.

You also have to ask about your number, how many were murders, how many were suicides, how many were because of police action? There are other factors, too.

So, Trinity, you're saying that I'm a murderer because I won multiple guns? The only things I've ever shot are rabbits and pheasant. Then we ate them. And I ihave a lisence to own a gun as well. Am I evil now?

Uh, if you shoot something and kill it, your a killer.

Crazy logic, I know.

Do you eat meat?

Seriously. How do you think that meat gets on your plate?

Wow, Kas. You've mastered the art of ignoring everything I said and making the same baseless arguments.

I said:

It's quite clear that Moore did not intend to combine these speeches and pass them off as one.

Note the "s" following the word speech, making it plural (that is, two or more).

You're response:

Really now? I suggest you take a look at this page which is a side-by-side comparison of Heston's real speech, and what Moore showed in BFC.

Yes... thank you for posting the link from which I got my quote. But here's the thing... that's one speech, Kas. I know, I know, the American education system has had so much funding taken away from it that the students spend more time collecting pop cans to buy new textbooks than they do actually learning, but that's simple grammar!

I said that he did not combine two speeches to create one... and you... well, I don't know what you're trying to prove. You certainly didn't address my point in the slightest.

Check the last link I gave you. This is a splice, Heston did not say that, Moore edited Heston's speech to make him say that. Remember that Indiana Jones thingy Ahnk posted? Like that.

See, this I find not only highly ironic, but highly ammusing. I got my quote from that same site, and it says these words, in this exact order: "I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for the newspaper ads saying the same thing, don't come here. "

It's quite clear from the transcript that Moore did an awful lot of editing to get them to come out in that order. Oh... wait.

Fact: At Denver, the NRA cancelled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' voting meeting -- that could not be cancelled because the state law governing nonprofits required that it be held. [No way to change location, since under NY law you have to give 10 days' advance notice of that to the members, there were upwards of 4,000,000 members -- and Columbine happened 11 days before the scheduled meeting.]

You are aware that Colorado is not New York, right? Now, normally New York law wouldn't apply in Colorado. And if I recall, the number of NRA participants just went from several thousand to... four million. Quite an impressive leap.

Kas - the meeting was scheduled for May 1st, is that right? So they had fully eight months in which a meeting could be planned, organized, and held. And I'm sure that the New York government would have cut them some slack, considering that they delayed their meeting only because a dozen people had just been killed by guns in the city they were visiting, and the people of that city were in the streets protesting them.

HOLY CRAP OWNING A GUN MAKES YOU EVIL!

Gee. Has it become that bad?

I love irony, but only because it makes you look stupid. You're sitting here arguing "Michael Moore is bad because he edits speeches!" And then you... lie. Which is far worse, by the way.

Read carefully: the words "crap" "make" and "evil" do not even appear in my text. What I said is that 80 million Americans own guns. That doesn't make them evil people. But it means there are an awful lot of guns, all of which could potentially fall into hands of people who are "evil". And clearly, they do... Or is all the "good God-loving Christians" who own guns that are doing the killing?

You also have to ask about your number, how many were murders, how many were suicides, how many were because of police action? There are other factors, too.

Uhh... yeah. What's your point again?

For reference, here's what I said:

Yeah. Except it's quite clear that 12 000 die by use of guns in the United States every year.

And here's what you said:

You also have to ask about your number, how many were murders, how many were suicides, how many were because of police action? There are other factors, too.

What are these "other factors". I said that people use guns to kill each other or themselves. If 2000 of them are suicides, it still means that 12 000 people died through the use of guns!

And you know what? If there weren't 80 million gun-toting Americans, chances are that a few of those 12 000 wouldn't be able to get the guns to do the killing! Or wouldn't be waving guns at the police, leaving them no choice but to shoot.

Death by a gun is death by a gun. And excuse me if I think that 12 000 people dying every year through guns is a tad excessive.

That's 4 times as many people as died on September 11, Kas. But I don't see America invading countries over it. What gives?

* * * * *

Yes, Kamon. Clearly I said those exact words, in that exact order.

Jesus Christ.

Why do you need multiple guns? "Oh, well sometimes I look to shoot innocent animals with a bigger gun. It makes up for the insignficant size of my penis."

You having guns in your house increases dramatically the liklihood that one or more of them will be fall into the hands of someone who will use it to shoot something other than animals.

Let's cut the fog, ok? Did Moore lie concerning Heston's speech? I say he did, and I present evidence that he did. Right here, black and white.

Do you think Moore lied in BFC?

Just as a side note, and completely unrelated, I'm also slightly repulsed by you, because you are using an attractive woman as your avatar, yet I know you're just barely older than my kid brother who is all pimply and greasy haired.