Vodo Baas

Right on that. Best restart ever! Yay!


For TNO.


These rules may seem good now, but they won't after Drayson attacks the Coalition with Ten Eclipse-class Star Destroyers and six hundred ISDs.

True, TNO is very powerful now... but still...


I am not trying to start a fight, just pointing out something that seemed obvious to me.

As it stands right now the Coalition would have no chance if TNO attacked. None. Zero. Numbers alone dictate that they would basically have to sit down and shut up while they are dismantled.

Clearly you have not read the new rules or you would know that to so clearly enumerate an enormous fleet is against these new rules. But either way the greater irony is that TNO could attack the Coalition, right now, with the equivalent of ten ESDs and six hundred ISDs. With the new rules implimented fleet size will not be an issue.

And while I'd hate to let the facts get in the way of a good story, what you're saying is actually the polar opposite of the truth. I set this in motion primarily to handicap TNO, not the other way around.

That was also a pretty cheap shot at Drayson. Poor taste considering your own non-stellar history with fleeting.


The same thing applies to you, Brutus. The objective of the new rules -- and Kas and I did, as he said, discuss your group explicitly -- was to give groups like yours a chance to do things that monsters like TNO couldn't just shrug off. As it stands right now, again, TNO can basically shrug off or ignore your group. Under the new rules that won't be the case. Your actions can and will have real weight.

Brutus Nogoth

I knew that I would never be able to compete numerically with TNO, or BDE, or GC. I didn't care. TRF was never about winning. I had hoped to build my forces up, and in a culminating battle suffer a terrific defeat, as the final point of my factions story. I didn't care that TNO had a gzabillion ships, or that I could never beat them. The joy was in the attempt- and being able to command around the forces I had constructed.

I thought I would take this and point out that such a thing, under the old rules, would probably never have come off. The thread -- like all such threads -- probably would have been bogged down under months of arguing, bean counting and shit-slinging until it either got resolved in a half-assed way or forgotten. At the very least, progress would have been slow.

That was the nature of the numbers system. Everyone fought every step of the way over every little imaginary ship they lost. Take a look back. That's pretty much how it always goes. Even fleet threads considered "successful" took OOC thread upon OOC thread to complete. In the Hands of the Gods took, what, ten? And ultimately that was basically not much more than a skirmish. Look at the recent threads.

Let me just say that I have seen places where battles are waged between a pair of ISD's and I can say that combat, fleeting, is in my opinion so much grander on a larger scale.

I'd like to also point out that this isn't what's being implimented either, so...



I'd just like to make the following point to everyone:

The numbers system wasn't working.

Aside from whatever satisfaction some of you may have derived from the act of building your fleet -- an act most found tedious I might add -- the numbers system simply was not working. As long as everyone stayed in their trenches and built their ships it was clear sailing, but the minute a fight broke out it was OOC argument upon OOC argument. The sheer math of it all, and the inability of people to part with their ships, had bogged the system down.

That's a fact.

So whether or not you liked the numbers, the system doesn't work. It doesn't. Forget your "grand conflict" element of TRF being gone with the new system -- it was never there to begin with. A "grand conflict" between TNO and BDE would have been so entangled in dispute and argument that it would have been stretched to a point where either both sides grew tired and abandoned it or someone took their shit and went home.

The thing dragging the fleet system down was the numbers. Everytime someone lost one of the ships they'd built it was a big to-do and it was like the end of the goddamn world. So every round, everytime one side posts something, the other posts an OOC argument tearing it down. Nobody was willing to part with their ships.

So what have we done? We've removed that element. Simple.

What is TRF losing? Bad, slow, stupid fleet threads. TRF has been relying on numbers too long. They're a stumbling block and they don't feed creativity, they interfere with it. Think back to all of the major conflicts you can think of in TRF's history. I will summarize for you the basic strategy employed in 90% of them:

1) Turn ships toward enemy.

2) Go straight at enemy.

3) Shoot enemy.

For all we make fun of TGC, TRF has basically been relying on TGC duel tactics for its fleeting threads. Oh, we dress it up in fancy language. We're pretty good at that. But it boils down to this. Go back. Read them. Even TNO threads are like this. And why shouldn't it? This is writing, for Christ's sake. You can't have in-depth tactical finesse with two sides writing against one another. It's like trying to staple your essay together with a nail gun. Big, stupid and clumsy.

And why? Numbers. Both sides are just falling back on that. The side with more ships decides that they win by default, and the other side scrambles to bring in more ships. Occasionally you'll see something innovative -- usually by the person with less ships.

So we remove the numbers. And no Brutus, that doesn't mean each side gets an ISD. It means there are no numbers, and no manifests. "Go straight at them and shoot and they die cuz their faggots u fuckin faggots" no longer works. It no longer does anything for you.

The side that will win will be the side that is smarter. It will be the side with the best ideas. Change your transponder signals, hide in an asteroid belt, disguise your ships as a fleet of traders, lay an ambush around a space station, try to board your opponents ships, rush right by them and try to get your soldiers onto the planet, whatever. And now, because there are no numerical assets to argue over, the logical response of a person to an enemy move that injures them is not to bitch in the staff room, but to try to counter it.

I wanted to say more but I'm hung over.

I hope this makes sense.

What about R&Ds that were pending when the mods stopped the approving them, but were posted in the forum? Do I have to do the 500 word RP for that or what (not that it would be that hard, but I would like to save myself some time).

Ok, some more questions.

Ok, logical sense makes sense in that ships don't appear out of thin air, in the meaning that, they just aren't built instantly, and the materiels and monies used to build them just exist just because they do. While the rules don't state that factions need to keep track of this stuff for their sense of logical sensibility when it comes to fleets and like, do the factions and members have the option of getting as complex and detailed as they desire the economic, and militaristic values of their factions to the extent that when they go into battle or the like, that they have with the least amount of doubt in their minds and a clear conscious, that what they have would be deemed legit?

Die Kraken. Die slow.

My sexual organs inflate with glee!

This is indeed a good day for some of us. This is the beginning of the end for others.

Hurrah to those involved in the manifestation! Hurrah and kudos.

Ok, logical sense makes sense in that ships don't appear out of thin air, in the meaning that, they just aren't built instantly,

This is true. However, they also don't take 6 OOC days to build either.

..and the materiels and monies used to build them just exist just because they do.

True enough

While the rules don't state that factions need to keep track of this stuff for their sense of logical sensibility when it comes to fleets and like, do the factions and members have the option of getting as complex and detailed as they desire

In roleplaying, you mean? What form would this complex, detailing take?

the economic

Example? We still have the planetary manifest. This should give you a farily good idea of the economics involved with your faction. Also, outside trade with other factions done in roleplay, agreements, etc... also play a part in the economics of your faction.

, and militaristic values of their factions

You mean number of ships right?

Kraken, if you want to keep a list of what commanders are under Park Kraken, and the names of vessels assigned to each commander, that is fine. Naturally, a vessel like an ISD would also have a certain compliment of fighters, etc.. meaning, realistically, in a roleplay, you cannot move a million men onto a planet for attack.


However, please keep in mind, battles will not be determined by numbers.

By way of illustration: In the old fleet rules, several fighters attacking and a single fighter taking out a Death Star would have been impossible. Now, with new rules, it is possible.





What we are saying is: This rule is paramount:

The #1 and ONLY Rule: What could logically work is what will work. This is otherwise known as the Common Sense rule. It (it meaning the situation at hand) will work if it could logically happen given the circumstances surrounding the situation. Since there are so many different variables in how things could happen, this rule will effect all actions on TRF, from raising a fleet (it's common sense that a fleet commander could raise more ships than a Jedi Knight, for instance) to running a business (it is common sense that a well-established businessman could draw a bigger loan than a new one), this rule is all-encompassing.

...to the extent that when they go into battle or the like, that they have with the least amount of doubt in their minds and a clear conscious, that what they have would be deemed legit?

While your attempt at arriving at a numerical constant with a clear conscience and legitimate manner is admirable, what the staff would really like to see is everyone roleplaying (in a battle) in a "legitimate", common sense-like manner thus giving them a clear conscience and alleviating any doubt and, above all, having fun.

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Ok then. Just go to SWF and take a look at the Imperial Soveriegnty, and how Telan has it set up. He keeps tracks of money, currency, income, trade goods, trade rights, etc., not because it's required, but because it's his hobby. It's how he likes to do things. What I am asking is will faction members, should they choose to do so, be allowed the freedom of doing this here, even though it is certainly not required.

Now here is the other thing. Are all planets meant to be created equal? Because if they are not, then a barren, deserted world such as Acatal and Akana would be less likely to support a Star Destroyer, than say an heavily industrialised world, such as Balmorra or Duro. And anyways I am getting tired. Will continue this tomorrow.

Psst. Tip: Read the rules.

If you plan on being a fleet group, you take planets that would logically help you attain those ends.

By way of illustration: In the old fleet rules, several fighters attacking and a single fighter taking out a Death Star would have been impossible. Now, with new rules, it is possible.

It was quite possible before. we all know Capital ship weapons have a hard time targeting fast moving fighters such as X-Wings. The Death Stars primary defense is capital ship weapons, and why? Becuase surely fighter craft are no threat to the Death Star!

Anyways, anything could have been done in the old rules if you were a semi-compotent roleplayer. It wasn't the rules that were the problem. It was lack of ideas.

No. Because along with those rules came a mindset that no one was able to break out of. That, and the simple stucture of planets = ships made empire building the singular way to attain power.