Allegiance Class Star Destroyers are command ships, not multi-role ships like the Imperator. The ISD was designed to pacify systems - the ASD was designed for one reason: to command.

It being long does not automatically mean it carries any decent number of soldiers. But since you don't like my numbers, why don't you provide some yourself? As I said, your fleet cannot carry more than 50 000 soldiers. To occupy an entire planet?

Next, you can dish out some canon evidence that says Abregado-rae has fewer cities than Iraq. And then explain how your 50 000 soldiers (maximum) can hope to occupy an entire world when it takes 200 000 to occupy one country.

Iraq's population is roughly 20 million, and there are 200 000 (roughly) soldiers there. That's one soldier for every 100 citizens. Abregado-rae has a population of roughly one billion, and you have 50 000 soldiers (maximum) on the ground. That's one soldier for every 20 000 citizens. And keep in mind that none of these citizens like you.

And yes, obviously militia lines break easily. But as I said, this is not trench warfare. Nor is this two sides lining up in a field and taking turns shooting each other down. You are attacking a vastly superior force which is entrenched in fortified positions, in their native territory.

You are going to suffer losses. That's a given.

Now then, you can also explain how you can level several cities (yes, several. more than one means several.) and only cause "a few" civilian deaths. Do you honestly expect them to run into the middle of nowhere?

Unlikely, in the extreme.

Unless you going to go on to claim that "He was holding a gun, he doesn't count as a civilian!" Which might make sense in the IC forums. But it is clear that you have still killed thousands of innocent civilians, unarmed. That's part of war, pure and simple.

The United States, using the finest cruise missile technology in the world and trying their best to avoid civilian casualties, caused around 10 000 in Iraq. You're attacking a target from hundreds of kilometres up, using unrefined weapons not designed for pinpoint accuracy (from that distance). And you destroyed "one or two" entire cities and massive tracts of civilian land.

Yes, there are going to be civilian deaths. A lot of them.

Oh, and I guess that the World Trade Centre wasn't a civilian structure? Or did they change the date without telling me?

Know this: you're bullshit does not make something reality.

Allegiance Class Star Destroyers are command ships, not multi-role ships like the Imperator. The ISD was designed to pacify systems - the ASD was designed for one reason: to command.

Funny they have a lot of firepower and space for something that is just designed for "command".

It being long does not automatically mean it carries any decent number of soldiers. But since you don't like my numbers, why don't you provide some yourself? As I said, your fleet cannot carry more than 50 000 soldiers. To occupy an entire planet?

Alright here we go. Though this site itself is not canon, they derived their info from canon sources so I shall begin:

www.geocities.com/nifship...ird_1.html

Troops: 18,500 Stormtroopers.

Support Craft: 10 Alpha Class XG-1 Star Wings, 28 Delta Class Dx-9 or Dx-9s Transports , 15 Lambda Class T-4a Shuttles, 2 Gamma Class Assault Shuttle and 2 TIE Shuttle Craft.

If I wanted I could even hold more if I hollowed out a portion of the support craft/fighters section.

The Imperial Mk. II Star Destroyer (the only kind ORS has)

Troops: 9,700 Stormtroopers, 20 AT-AT Walkers, 30 AT-ST Walkers, 1 Pre-fabricated Garrison Base.

Also I can gain more troops if I remove the walkers. I have two of these. That's roughly 10,000 per, 20,000 + roughly 20,000 = 40,000. Now that's just from my Star Destroyers, and allow me to quote the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels:

Strike Cruisers can carry a strike force if need be. This can contain five AT-ATs and "enough troops to supplement an assault". Also if you refer to the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels it indicates that "one ISD can be used for an assault" and it takes "five to six for a full scale assault". Seeing as you don't have the forces to hold up against a full scale assault - plus I have ships to make up for the lack of ISDs (including an ASSD which holds the compliment of TWO Star Destroyers) - it is in fact over kill. Let's see what else I can conjure up.

I have two of those, that's roughly 1000 soldiers.

pub33.ezboard.com/fswalli...=113.topic

That's 1200 more on my Silencers.

As well as armors.

I have three Battle Horn Bulk Cruisers. Bulk Cruisers were originally designed to carry troops, we can consider that anotherish 2500-3000. I'll balance it out at 2675.

Then we have Penetrator Assault Cruisers, four to be exact. They can each carry 2 Storm Regiments and 2 Fighter Squadrons, or 4 regiments if the 2 fighter squadrons are removed. So I have 2 storm regiments per, that's roughly 800 per regiment, so 1600 per ship. That's 3200 more soldiers.

pub33.ezboard.com/fswalli...=224.topic

Plus I have 60 Sovereignty Birds of Prey Mk. II, that's 10 CAVs per, that's 600 CAVs + their compliment of soldiers.

Now take into consideration the fact that you have a very minimal garrison on the planet that was already destroyed through constant air/space raids.

Next, you can dish out some canon evidence that says Abregado-rae has fewer cities than Iraq.

Abregado
Abregado, site of the Abregado-rae Spaceport, is controlled by an oppressive government which has kept the peace and improved the local spaceport facilities at the expense of individual freedoms. Abregado's government has cut off all supply lines to a clan of rebellious hill people, which has created illegal supply opportunities for ambitious smugglers. Han Solo and Lando Calrissian met up with a contact from Talon Karrde's smuggling organization in Abregado-rae's LoBue cantina, and Wedge Antilles later helped get one of Karrde's ships out of impoundment from the planet. The natives of Abregado are referred to as Gados. [HTTE, DFR]

There was only ever referenced one or two major cities, especially during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

Everything points to the fact that Abregado-rae is built around a space port by an oppressive regime. Oppressive regimes do not tolerate constant build ups of new cities that are further and further from their power base. Its a planet built around its shipyard and its shipyard alone.

And then explain how your 50 000 soldiers (maximum) can hope to occupy an entire world when it takes 200 000 to occupy one country.

Oy I'll do the math myself here:

20,000 + 10,000 + 10,000 = 40,000 + 1,000 = 41,000 + 1,200 = 42,200 + 2,675 = 44,875 + 3,000 = 47,875 + a good 3,000 from the advancing CAVs, AT-ATs, and the like = 50,875 now that's just infantry (not my total force)

+ give or take 1,000 armor units moving against 0 armor units against 0 air units against very limited infantry units.

I was being very, very lenient in saying that there were multiple cities to take - with Abregado-rae being primarily hills and its spaec port. 51-55,000 troops are MORE than sufficient to take and hold a planet built around a single space port.

Especially one where you have almost no forces.

Again, read the books. This isn't the same thing as real life, there are other things to take into consideration.

Now also bare in mind, it is taking 200,000 American soldiers to currently occupy Iraq post invasion.

We did not hit Iraq with 200,000 soldiers in a single strike. If so the country would've collapsed far sooner.

Iraq's population is roughly 20 million, and there are 200 000 (roughly) soldiers there. That's one soldier for every 100 citizens. Abregado-rae has a population of roughly one billion, and you have 50 000 soldiers (maximum) on the ground. That's one soldier for every 20 000 citizens. And keep in mind that none of these citizens like you.

Don't like you either Drayson, you can't hide behind civilians and expect to be Mr. Popular.

The difference is however, *I* RPed these things out. The civilians aren't going to just suddenly pop up and assault mine mid invasion. You are taking things entirely out of context.

This is one major push with 55ish thousand troops + armor + aircraft + naval craft. You have, at best, a couple thousand left - if even that on account of your RP.

And yes, obviously militia lines break easily. But as I said, this is not trench warfare. Nor is this two sides lining up in a field and taking turns shooting each other down. You are attacking a vastly superior force which is entrenched in fortified positions, in their native territory.

That's the exact opposite of what you said last post. You said "this is not entrenched warfare, this is guerilla warfare". I am fighting INFERIOR forces in INFERIOR gear who now have INFERIOR numbers.

You are going to suffer losses. That's a given.

And I have, but I was VERY careful about my strategy so that my losses wouldn't be as grotesque and absolutely stupid as you try to make them out to be. I didn't fire for the past sevenish hours so that you could shoot down everything coming down.

When I landed it was NOT a fair fight. I made sure of that.

Now then, you can also explain how you can level several cities (yes, several. more than one means several.) and only cause "a few" civilian deaths.

When civilians aren't there, they can't be killed, pretty simple.

Do you honestly expect them to run into the middle of nowhere?

Read my RP, I am not explaining this to you again.

Unlikely, in the extreme.

Only in your weird little ideas for how RPs should go.

Unless you going to go on to claim that "He was holding a gun, he doesn't count as a civilian!"

You're damn right. As soon as you pose a threat to an armed force you give up your rights as a civilian. Militia are NOT civilians. People defending what they think are their homes are NOT civilians.

If you are a threat, you give up your right - knowingly - as a civilian and can hence be targetted.

Don't be an idiot Drayson.

Which might make sense in the IC forums. But it is clear that you have still killed thousands of innocent civilians, unarmed. That's part of war, pure and simple.

Absolutely wrong. Sorry, but it's just wrong and Im' not going to explain why again.

The United States, using the finest cruise missile technology in the world and trying their best to avoid civilian casualties, caused around 10 000 in Iraq.

I'd like to see where these numbers came from.

But remember though that wasn't 10,000 casualties in the opening day either. That was 10,000 casualties over the course of months.

You're attacking a target from hundreds of kilometres up, using unrefined weapons not designed for pinpoint accuracy (from that distance). And you destroyed "one or two" entire cities and massive tracts of civilian land.

Wherever there were military targets. If you put them in civilian tracts of land that's your own fault - but I gave the chance for them to evacuate. If they did not and took up arms they are NOT civilians.

Yes, there are going to be civilian deaths. A lot of them.

You are inexplicably stupid unfortunately, or bull-headedly ignorant.

Oh, and I guess that the World Trade Centre wasn't a civilian structure?

You moron. You unbelieveable moron.

I said in the Pentagon strike no civilian structures were harmed. What kind of an idiot are you really?

Circular logic to the extreme, thank you for proving every single one of your debates wrong with your countless logical fallacies.

Know this: you're bullshit does not make something reality.

No but the reality of the situation does.

Post and post accurately without spewing out your dribble.

You have 24 hours.

IF you use the same stupidity you have here it will be ignored.

If you remember by Ahnk's own ruling, the civilians would flee the cities.

Try reading these posts Drayson.

Childish insults aside...

I gave you an approximate number of 100 000 troops to begin with, which you said was BS. I then estimated 50 000 soldiers, which you also contested.

Now you tell me that's about the number you have. So we're agreed on your having 50 000 soldiers, give or take.

Now. You actually argue that Abregado-rae has one, maybe two cities? So a population of one billion people is living in two cities?

Just because the books don't state, "the planet has X ammount of cities..." doesn't mean there are only two. I will further point out that your canon source is (on our timeline) far outdated.

Things change.

Your never had superior numbers, and your numbers have been decreased since the fighting began. Your armour I am not even taking into consideration because, unlike soldiers, it is something that has to be produced in a construction yard, it should therefor be listed as OOC assets, and you haven't mentioned it before now.

Now, taking into consideration that you are attacking a largely superior force which is fighting you from their own city, you are going to suffer losses. Unless you claim to have levelled entire cities.

Keep in mind to that you had no indicated before landing your troops that there was any sort of militia movement, and you were unaware that they were taking up residence in buildings all over the place.

You also have yet to explain how your 50 000 soldiers can occupy an entire world. No, there are not only two cities on this planet. That is perhaps the most rediculous claim I've ever heard.

Oh, and by the way. Your stats for the Allegiance Star Destroyer are by no means canon. The "approved" ship sources we use have no definate stats for the ship - hence the TNO general R&D on the vessel. Just an fyi for you.

I will have a response as soon as you tell me how many of the planet's many, many cities you think you control.

Drayson has received a temporary name-ban for ignoring the following ruling by Ahnk, which was on page 2.

My Ruling: Civilan populations do not fight to the death against invaders no matter how evil. It is unrealistic. Small bands may feel free to do so, at the discretion of the planets owner. The invaders may feel free to kill civilans, keeping in mind the consequences of their actions. The planets owner may feel free to kill their own civilians, keeping in mind the consequences for them as well. The planets owner may not field a millions-strong army that, when killed, turns more millions into a militia. It is unrealistic and unfair. It will be considered godmoding.

I would say that Kal is entirely able to enforce his own rulings, Kas. Nevertheless, see PM.

I gave you an approximate number of 100 000 troops to begin with, which you said was BS. I then estimated 50 000 soldiers, which you also contested.

Uh, how did I contest? I said nothing other than that I outnumbered your soldiers Drayson.

Now you tell me that's about the number you have. So we're agreed on your having 50 000 soldiers, give or take.

I can agree with that, 50k give or take.

Now. You actually argue that Abregado-rae has one, maybe two cities? So a population of one billion people is living in two cities?

No, I said they have a bare minimum of cities.

Let's look at the scenario here...if you want to say that a billion people have been ferried in to populate a handful of cities, be my guest. But you have to live with the reality of what the planet is. Its history/estate doesn't change at the drop of a hat for you with no RPs and no changes.

You've been in control of Abregado-rae for a couple of weeks - maximum.

Just because the books don't state, "the planet has X ammount of cities..." doesn't mean there are only two.

I said there were at best a handful. It's not a heavily urbanized planet, it's the 7-11 of the Inner Core. An oppressive regime has kept it intact as a stop-and-go space port until the Galactic Coalition came along, and then you forced the Galactic Coalition out, took over, and began stripping them of defenses and minimizing your garrison (I'm not the one saying that...you are).

It is a planet built entirely around its space port, it's not a wealthy, booming metropolis.

I will further point out that your canon source is (on our timeline) far outdated.

My sources are Heir to the Empire (obviously out dated) and one of the two books in the Agents of Chaos series, I'll get you an accurate name at a later date - my step father is currently borrowing those books.

However I'll have you note that none canon or IC here have contested what has been stated as a canon fact. Again it doesn't get to change because it conveniences you.

Things change.

Not after the fact.

This is exactly what you're accusing Kamon of.

Your never had superior numbers, and your numbers have been decreased since the fighting began.

It's arguable that I had superior army numbers to begin with.

It's even more arguable, no it's fact, that I outnumber you now. You don't get to simply disregard fleet bombardments and air strikes because, again, it will convenience you. Your anti-fighter defenses have been targetted and laid to waist, your garrisons were very specifically assaulted, and you're carrying on to tell me that somehow you still outnumber me when I'm in military control of your planet?

Your armour I am not even taking into consideration because, unlike soldiers, it is something that has to be produced in a construction yard, it should therefor be listed as OOC assets, and you haven't mentioned it before now.

It was considered a part of my ground manifest, I'll get you exact numbers soon - forgive me again due to the confusion of ships and numbers. However you will have to take them into consideration - you don't have a choice.

Now, taking into consideration that you are attacking a largely superior force which is fighting you from their own city, you are going to suffer losses. Unless you claim to have levelled entire cities.

No, I claim I destroyed your forces from space and air. You, again, did not contest this at all until now. Your forces are decimated.

It's not a "vastly superior force", its' a massively decimated force who is reeling toward potential exhaustion after being pummeled from space and air fighting against a force with armored vehicles - something you don't posess - air superiority - something you don't possess - space superiority - something you don't possess - and morale superiority - something you don't possess.

I was very specific about destroying your garrisons before attacking.

Besides the final civilian casualties haven't even been summed up yet, wait until the RP is done.

Keep in mind to that you had no indicated before landing your troops that there was any sort of militia movement, and you were unaware that they were taking up residence in buildings all over the place.

And any where they took up position was designated a military target. You're obviously having a hard time grasping this idea:

If you are set up as an armed, able and willing threat against a military force you have since given up your rights as a civilian.

You also have yet to explain how your 50 000 soldiers can occupy an entire world. No, there are not only two cities on this planet. That is perhaps the most rediculous claim I've ever heard.

How many cities are on Tatooine? Three? Four?

From every source I've found there's two major cities with a series of villages.

I am not saying I'm occupying your entire world with 50,000ish soldiers, I am saying I am assaulting and defeating your world with 50,000ish soldiers, far more than you've fielded.

As well as armored vehicles.

Oh, and by the way. Your stats for the Allegiance Star Destroyer are by no means canon. The "approved" ship sources we use have no definate stats for the ship - hence the TNO general R&D on the vessel. Just an fyi for you.

I'm using the canon source, I'm not going to use what you want the vessel to be.

I quite frankly could not possibly care less if you want exclusive rights to the vessel - as it is canon I am using the canon amount of soldiers.

I will have a response as soon as you tell me how many of the planet's many, many cities you think you control.

You want a definite number of cities?

Fine, you've got six.

The capitol is being pummeled, two are more or less held, one is devastated, one has been abandoned and another is in the process of falling.

There you go, kudos.