As An FYI, Mr./Ms. Drayson
Posts: 1381
  • Posted On: Jan 2 2004 7:10am
You fully realize I don't have the time or energy to devote to sorting through your garbage, right? I got tired of that trying to roleplay with Chadd and Xilen.

But let me set one thing straight, which you know full well but continue to press since you seem to think it makes you sound smarter than you actually are.

The situations at Tholatin and Farquak are completely different from the one at Abregado-rae. We both know this - that you continue to bring them up does little to build a case for you.

Farquak continues because there are no OOC issues. There are here, yet you continue to post. Tholatin, I am in no way dictating his actions. I am merely informing him that his citizens are dead as a result of the two square kilometre area that has been levelled.

No, Ralen, you have not destroyed "most" of my forces, and you are by no means "mostly" in control of the planet. Your fleet carries a few thousand soldiers at best, not more than 100 000 (though I don't have time to calculate).

Are you telling me that your forces are spread so thin as to put a garrison in every city on the planet? Great - I'll keep that in mind.

You go on to contradict yourself. You target only military structures - yet "most" of the defenders are dead? But wait! They're not sitting in military bases waiting to die!

So either you're actively destroying entire residential blocks in order to destroy my soldiers, or you've not destroyed a fraction of them. Keep in mind that this is not trench warfare, this is gurrella tactics. I just happen to have a larger force behind it.

Even assuming that "the majority" of the defenders are militia, and there are somewhere around ten million militia (a low estimate from a population of roughly one billion), and another 10% of Imperial Army, that's one million Army - far more than you can field yourself.

Even assuming only one percent of the forces were army, they would still be equal to your forces, using the high estimate above.

And these are low estimates for Imperial defence.

So, you've managed to destroy the majority of these defenders across the entire world with a few minutes of bombardment and a small number of troops, who are outside their native enviorment and don't know the land, facing a combination of highly-trained Imperial soldiers (the best in the Galaxy) and hard-core fanatics defending their homes?

Remember that you begun this campaign by bombing the @#%$ out of the surface. The citizens have already lived under the Coalition - they did not enjoy it. Now you arrive and decide to attack the planet from space.

You think they're going to sit back and let you kill them? Yeah. Right.

Furthermore, you will not dictate the deaths caused by bombing a world from space. Orbital bombardment is a highly risky process with a massive margin for error. Trying to strike a single structure in the midst of a city would, in all liklihood, achive massive casualties.

Not a "few hundred". Thousands - and climbing.
Posts: 645
  • Posted On: Jan 2 2004 8:36am
Drayson, I seem to remember ruling no militia.

That was a staff ruling.
Posts: 405
  • Posted On: Jan 2 2004 8:52am
Give me a @#%$ break, Kal. I've been fighting with the militia units since the thread began - and TNO has been doing it since before then.

In particular, Bespin and Taloraan. Koros Major and Cinnigar were both also ready to be defended by militia forces, but the attacker pulled out of the thread.

However, if that is a ruling: Ralen, you may consider all of those militia units Imperial Army.
  • Posted On: Jan 2 2004 7:29pm
You fully realize I don't have the time or energy to devote to sorting through your garbage, right? I got tired of that trying to roleplay with Chadd and Xilen.


Don't accuse me of god moding and cheating and then refuse to read my follow ups or complain at me about my point of view.

But let me set one thing straight, which you know full well but continue to press since you seem to think it makes you sound smarter than you actually are.


Can you make a single post without resorting to flame baiting?

The situations at Tholatin and Farquak are completely different from the one at Abregado-rae.


The only significant difference is that this time you are the one who has to suffer the repercussions.

We both know this - that you continue to bring them up does little to build a case for you.


Perhaps in your eyes.

Farquak continues because there are no OOC issues.


All OOC problems were solved or a ruling was made by the staff. I gave you four days to post. You neglected this. You have been far more harsh to the Galactic Coalition.

There are here, yet you continue to post. Tholatin, I am in no way dictating his actions. I am merely informing him that his citizens are dead as a result of the two square kilometre area that has been levelled.


Wrong. You're telling him his citizens can't have had security measures, you're telling him his citizens are enraged or disgusted by Kamon's actions, you're telling him he can't have blocked the area off (which is the most logical thing to have happened) because you want pictures taken.

You told Arden that his people were going to be rebelling and there was nothing he could do about it.

No, Ralen, you have not destroyed "most" of my forces, and you are by no means "mostly" in control of the planet.


Yes, I really am, deal with it.

Your fleet carries a few thousand soldiers at best, not more than 100 000 (though I don't have time to calculate).


And your planet now contains even less than that.

Are you telling me that your forces are spread so thin as to put a garrison in every city on the planet?


Nope, I'm saying my forces have set up bunkers in the outlying cities around the capitol - the rest having been wiped pretty much clean through air and space raids. I don't have time to dig it up but if you read throughout canon such attacks are quite powerful.

And you yourself stated that you dd not have a strong military presence there to begin with.

You go on to contradict yourself. You target only military structures - yet "most" of the defenders are dead?


Yes I fail to see the ridiculousness in this, unless you're implying that in order to destroy a military I have to kill civilians.

I don't know where you get your battle tactics from.

But wait! They're not sitting in military bases waiting to die!


Unless they're hiding in civilian tracts of land.

So either you're actively destroying entire residential blocks in order to destroy my soldiers, or you've not destroyed a fraction of them.


Umm. That made absolutely no sense Drayson. Are you telling me your soldiers are hiding inside civilian houses? (You know, the ones evacuated after my warning?)

Keep in mind that this is not trench warfare, this is gurrella tactics.


Remember however, the cities were more or less evacuated after oh about my secondish post?

I just happen to have a larger force behind it.


Had.

But then again this is just as you say to Kamon "Saying after the fact OOC instead of IC".

Even assuming that "the majority" of the defenders are militia, and there are somewhere around ten million militia (a low estimate from a population of roughly one billion),


I seem to remember that you said in your own IC thread that there were barely a billion people - especially because Abregado-rae was ruled by such a strict and harsh regime before the Outer Rim Sovereignty took it over. That was, of course, your biggest flaw.

ORS was a walk in the part compared to the totalitarians who ran it before. But little matter, it's not like you've treated them any better. Regardless, your "militia" lines broke, your Imperial army personnel are falling, and the planet is, more or less, in my control.

If you had responded in the alloted times with more than "Well my militia kick your ass" or "Major Devell is a very cool guy" then perhaps you would not be in this mess.

and another 10% of Imperial Army, that's one million Army - far more than you can field yourself.


You stated yourself there were very very very little Imperial army personnel at all. Therefore, those who were there either fell back or died.

Even assuming only one percent of the forces were army, they would still be equal to your forces, using the high estimate above.


Your estimates are completely out of whack though.

And these are low estimates for Imperial defence.


Not really, especially a backwater planet that hardly anyone cares about. Especially one where you had so little respect for the people that you withdrew their shield generator.

So, you've managed to destroy the majority of these defenders across the entire world with a few minutes of bombardment and a small number of troops, who are outside their native enviorment and don't know the land, facing a combination of highly-trained Imperial soldiers (the best in the Galaxy) and hard-core fanatics defending their homes?


No, within several hours I managed to decimate your positions, break your "militia" lines, defeat tired and frighened foes, bomb the hell out of your holdings until I either got surrenders or they were softened enough for an attack, and then met those few in ground warfare.

It's called routine air strikes, it's used by every government in times of war to soften up targets before they lead to ground warfare.

Of course, they also aren't fanatics defending their homes. Nine out of ten civilians fled the city upon my warning, and then, despite the fact that the staff said you couldn't have militia, I went along with it - simply not with the ridiculous numbers you threw out.

Remember that you begun this campaign by bombing the @#%$ out of the surface.


No, that's in err. I attacked the last known position of the shield generator. If you moved that so that it could be in a city, or built a city around it, that's your problem, not mine and people catch onto these kinds of things. Civilians aren't as numbingly idiotic as you seem to hope.

The citizens have already lived under the Coalition - they did not enjoy it.


Fortunately, I'm not the Coalition am I?

And I assure you, they enjoyed it much more than the people before them who dictated every single part of their lives. And I'm sure they enjoyed it more than the Empire who comes in, steals their defenses, and leaves them with a minimal garrison.

Now you arrive and decide to attack the planet from space.


Nah, I just destroyed several Imperial held positions from space.

You think they're going to sit back and let you kill them? Yeah. Right.


Of course not, after I offered my chance for them to escape, they left. Pretty simple and logical in my eyes.

Furthermore, you will not dictate the deaths caused by bombing a world from space. Orbital bombardment is a highly risky process with a massive margin for error.


That is why, until the civilians left the cities, I did not target the cities. When you're firing and a gigantic erect building straight in the middle of generally nowhere (Unless YOU relocated it to a city) has a margin for error sure...but the only other things its going to be hitting is pretty much ground. Again, if I was hitting civilians in that attack that was because the Empire put a military target in a civilian area where you KNEW people were going to get killed in a bombing raid.

Trying to strike a single structure in the midst of a city would, in all liklihood, achive massive casualties.


You're right, and there were civilian casualties, just not in the thousands. I'm hitting military targets, but you seem to be putting them next to civilians therefore - those who stayed and did not flee to outside the cities to avoid the battle were likely effected. Four hundredish in this case.

Not a "few hundred". Thousands - and climbing.


Again, no. You don't read my RP, you don't read my arguements by your own admission. You simply go "Oh he's shooting from space, okay say a thousand people died so I can try to screw him over in the IC News and Propaganda".

It's pretty simple and won't be tolerated. But again let's not forget that it was you who said that the people were against the Empire, not me.

that Abregado-rae wanted no longer to be a part of the Empire.


However, if that is a ruling: Ralen, you may consider all of those militia units Imperial Army.


I've always considered you as having militia, but with the proper consequences, draw backs, and realities. You simply did not have the same numbers you claim and they're being pushed back.

Your threads stated you had a minimal garrison, that is how this RP is going to go.


EDIT: I took to the liberty of beginning to read the original Abregado-rae thread...I must say that it is filled with far worse "dictation" of Galactic Coalition citizens and actions than you could ever accuse me of.

I must say your complaints are the poster boy for "The pot calling the kettle black".
Posts: 1381
  • Posted On: Jan 3 2004 4:31am
Here's the difference, Ralen. I spent days IC and OOC convincing the citizens to do what I told them. Don't give me @#%$ about "You control their citizens!"

If you'll notice, the defence was centred inside the cities, in bunkers on corners and in buildings. So, again, either you've destroyed massive tracts of civilian and residential areas, or you've not accounted for a fraction of the defence.

You cannot have the best of both worlds.

But since you claim to control the entire world, or very nearly, I'll take that to mean you have only a small number of soldiers in every city on the surface. After all, the total number landed by your fleet isn't overly large, and there are a lot of cities.

You also do not dictate the actions of my civilians or forces. You can run around yelling "I told them to run and they did!" - it doesn't make it true. I could say your fleet suddenly vanished and your soldiers all decided to shoot themselves in the head - it doesn't make it real.

Unless I follow the same logic as you, that is.

So, answer me this: have you levelled the cities?
Posts: 1381
  • Posted On: Jan 3 2004 4:35am
Oh, and just FYI. I took the time to check the little quote you've been running around with, and you know as well as I do that it's a simple mistake.

Now, I fully expect you to run back saying "What you did IC is what happened! Hahaha!" So, I'll simply inform you so that you have the full knowledge that yes, that is a simple typo (it should read "Coalition" instead of "Empire"). Now that you know that, you can get rid of that unsightly bulge in your pants and shut up.

Okay?
  • Posted On: Jan 3 2004 9:04am
Here's the difference, Ralen. I spent days IC and OOC convincing the citizens to do what I told them.


That's not only false, that's a blatant lie. In your first post you were telling them what their citizens were thinking and told them they couldn't do a damn thing about it. This carried over with your capture of Joren Arden.

Don't give me @#%$ about "You control their citizens!"


Should I begin quoting that RP?

If you'll notice, the defence was centred inside the cities, in bunkers on corners and in buildings. So, again, either you've destroyed massive tracts of civilian and residential areas, or you've not accounted for a fraction of the defence.


If you are the coward who hides behind civilians, then those tracts of lands have been destroyed - fortunately however they are generally evacuated. But it was YOUR cowardice that led to their destruction.

I'm glad to know that certain members from TRF use battle tactics wrought of the fedaeen.

You cannot have the best of both worlds.


Obviously I can't begin to assume that you would act with any degree of humanity and try to seperate military facilities from residential zones. I don't know what you were raised to believe but there simply aren't any military targets in residential tracts anywhere I've ever seen, lived, or heard of. Ever.

But since you claim to control the entire world, or very nearly, I'll take that to mean you have only a small number of soldiers in every city on the surface. After all, the total number landed by your fleet isn't overly large, and there are a lot of cities.


No there aren't. Abregado-rae doesn't have a whole helluva lot of cities - it's lightly populated (by your own admission) and your forces are essentially gone.

I captured/destroyed your positions (meaning I decimated the troops set up in your holdings, took them, and when I was certain there was no further threat, I advanced) and pressed on to surround the capitol after I was certain your emplacements were gone.

You also do not dictate the actions of my civilians or forces. You can run around yelling "I told them to run and they did!" - it doesn't make it true.


As you and the staff always say "There was no contestation" other than you trying to pile on these ridiculous kill counts.

I could say your fleet suddenly vanished and your soldiers all decided to shoot themselves in the head - it doesn't make it real.


If I didn't contest it, by your rules, then it would have been official. You are honestly trying to tell me that civilians are standing there with gigantic targets saying "PLEASE RALEN SHOOT ME SO DRAYSON CAN TRY TO SCREW YOU IN THE IC NEWS AND PROPAGANDA FORUM!!!!!"?

Don't be an idiot, please.

Also I want you to point out the illogic here:

I move into the system and assault an isolated military target. Then when my position is set in the system and I'm ready to begin attacking the urbanized Imperial forces I offer a warning to the civilians. When nothing is really said in response, I say they begin to flee the city as I suggested (the next logical step as Kas said we should do).

Now are you seriously saying that it is ILLOGICAL that civilians will flee a potential battle ground after being forewarned and having the chance to do so? I seriously hope you don't believe that it is truly a great leap of logic.


So, answer me this: have you levelled the cities?


I'm certain one or two have been levelled, yes.

Oh, and just FYI. I took the time to check the little quote you've been running around with, and you know as well as I do that it's a simple mistake.


You want to nitpick me about specifics, I will ride this down your throat every single time you want to @#%$ at me. You said they didn't want to be a part of the Empire and that's going to be the hardened fact until you get off your high horse and try to act at least a little civil.

I apologize for the harshness of this post but the circular logic you have been emitting is mind boggling.

You have 24 more hours to post.
Posts: 1381
  • Posted On: Jan 3 2004 10:13am
No, Ralen.

When you stop god moding and bullshitting, I will post. Don't give me any of this "I'm glad to know that certain members from TRF use battle tactics wrought of the fedaeen." @#%$.

Of all the things I've heard on TRF, that is the very lowest. Unless it's escaped you, this is a GAME. And my side happens to be the Empire. You know, the one that blew up Alderaan, enslaved thousands to build two Death Stars, and killed countless billions needlessly.

I'm glad to know that certain members of TRF cannot tell the difference between a game and reality.

Again, Ralen, your stating something as reality does not make it reality. Not on a world belonging to the Empire. Whether you like it or not, you killed thousands of innocent civilians by bombarding their homes.

it was YOUR cowardice that led to their destruction.


Wow. You don't say! I'm certainly happy that you can differentiate OOC and IC.

Oh. Wait.

I don't know what you were raised to believe but there simply aren't any military targets in residential tracts anywhere I've ever seen, lived, or heard of. Ever.


Perhaps not set in the middle of a neighbourhood, no. But the Pentagon is in the middle of Washington DC. And there are dozens of missile silos in and around Denver.

But you'll notice I never said their bases were there. I said they were setting up there. As in, garrisoning civilian structures. If you would read the RP, as opposed to bullshitting your way though it, you would know that.

As you and the staff always say "There was no contestation" other than you trying to pile on these ridiculous kill counts.


If only that were true... Granted, some of your posts have actually been legitimate. My apologies for having a life.

However, as you well know, most of your "advances" are a result of you sitting here going "@#%$ you, I'm posting whether you like it or not! you suck!" You choosing to pretend your actions are realistic and ignore "contestation" does not make you right.

And then go on to claim that, while several cities have been fully levelled, there are only a few hundred casualties? Yeah. Right.

Now, moving on.

I estimated your total troop capacity at around 100 000. And you're right - that estimate was far out of whack. An ISD carries 9700 soldiers, and you have two. So there's 20 000, give or take.

Your other ships are quite small. So you have maybe 50 000 troops, and that's a stretch. From these meger numbers, let's say that 5000 were killed by anti-air defences. That brings you to 45 000 that ever reached the ground.

From there, another 5000 were killed disembarking. Down to 40 000. From that, let's say that half were killed advancing and fighting to gain their positions. That gives you roughly 20 000 troops.

Now, for a little bit of comparison? The United States has somewhere in the region of 200 000 soldiers in Iraq, and is considering sending more to occupy it.

Iraq is a relitively small nation. And yet to occupy it, the US requires 200 000 soldiers! You have a tenth that number - 20 000 soldiers, attempting to hold an entire planet?

Planets, obviously, are quite large. If you are indeed in control of "most" of the planet, then your forces are spread very, very, thin.

Or, you're in control of a very small percentage of the planet.
  • Posted On: Jan 3 2004 10:33am
Don't give me any of this "I'm glad to know that certain members from TRF use battle tactics wrought of the fedaeen." @#%$.


You act like the fedaeen you received the said title.

Of all the things I've heard on TRF, that is the very lowest. Unless it's escaped you, this is a GAME.


Pardon me if I point out your battle tactics are indeed derived from militia terrorist organizations shielding themselves behind civilians. Don't like it? Don't do it.

And my side happens to be the Empire. You know, the one that blew up Alderaan, enslaved thousands to build two Death Stars, and killed countless billions needlessly.


Yes, the bad guys, but up until right now you decided to tell me that you were the eternal good guys.

I'm glad to know that certain members of TRF cannot tell the difference between a game and reality.


Drayson, you know literally nothing about me other than that I've sat here and proved your ridiculous claims wrong time and tmie again and then called you up on your tactics, which are exactly the same as the fedaeen terrorist militia.

Again, Ralen, your stating something as reality does not make it reality.


No the fact that it happened makes it reality. Sorry to inform you.

Not on a world belonging to the Empire. Whether you like it or not, you killed thousands of innocent civilians by bombarding their homes.


I'll let you in on a little secret that is strangely elluding you for the last time:

No...I really didn't. Get over it, stop crying, and play like the man you claim to be. I didn't come to this board to listen to your bleeding heart about why you need to be right every single time you post and everything you do must be infallible.

You are losing, get used to it.



Wow. You don't say! I'm certainly happy that you can differentiate OOC and IC.


I can differentiate them finely, but when YOU come about accusing me of murdering innocents the real skewers between your perception of reality and RP seems to be called into question. You make no sense in these constant crack posts and they're simply attempts to buy time and get people to try to shut you up by kissing your ass.



Perhaps not set in the middle of a neighbourhood, no. But the Pentagon is in the middle of Washington DC.


You're absolutely right, the Pentagon is in Washington D.C., and then private investors began erecting homes around the Pentagon for families of those who worked there if they chose to move in. You're also failing to realize that there are evacuation codes/procedures for civilians...not to mention the fact that the Pentagon isn't set up directly next to enormous housing tracts.

The attacks on September 11th didn't destroy any civilian tracts of land, they wrecked the Pentagon and the Pentagon alone (in that particular attack). That was a really bad example.

And there are dozens of missile silos in and around Denver.


No you moron, they aren't in Denver. They're several dozen miles outside Denver. Don't be ridiculous.

But you'll notice I never said their bases were there. I said they were setting up there. As in, garrisoning civilian structures. If you would read the RP, as opposed to bullshitting your way though it, you would know that.


Obviously I have read the RP, I quoted almost the entire god damn thing in one of my previous posts. But you aren't making yourself clear, you're saying "YOU DIE BANG BANG" and then coming in here and telling me I'm wrong in everything I do.

If you're setting up in civilian structures, those structures are no longer considered "Civilian" but "hot" or "hostile" and must be eradicated. If you're hiding behind civilians don't blame me for blowing up those buildings, that's all you.


If only that were true... Granted, some of your posts have actually been legitimate. My apologies for having a life.


Every single one of my posts has been legimate, and if there was an issue (shield generator, rescuing Joren Arden) I editted it. How much have you editted? How much have you conceded? Nothing.

However, as you well know, most of your "advances" are a result of you sitting here going "@#%$ you, I'm posting whether you like it or not! you suck!"


No I'm acting within the rights given me by the rules. You did not post in 72 hour allotted times and made no effort to say "Hey something is going on or whatnot and I can't post" to which I would've happily obliged.

You said nothing. So I continued.

I hate to break it to you but just because you choose to ignore my thread doesn't mean I don't get to advance my forces.

You choosing to pretend your actions are realistic and ignore "contestation" does not make you right.


There hasn't been any contestation, this is you pulling things out of your ass after the fact. Shut up and finish the RP already, it's almost done.

And then go on to claim that, while several cities have been fully levelled, there are only a few hundred casualties?


Hard to kill people who aren't there.

Did I say several cities? Nope. Again you're going off to try to believe that Abregado-rae is this densely populated urban phenomenon. It's a backwater, former oppressive regime ruled, space port-driven planet. Until very recently its entire structure was based around that space port.

Then you admit to that fact in your own RP stating there's hardly even a billion - if that - on the planet. Then you want to tell me that its so packed that any kind of attack would kill thousands.

No you're trying to change the story after the fact so you can post in the IC News and Propaganda Forum or make a new RP where I "so vilely destroyed civilians". Grow up already.

I estimated your total troop capacity at around 100 000. And you're right - that estimate was far out of whack. An ISD carries 9700 soldiers, and you have two. So there's 20 000, give or take.


Read my manifest before you try to make assumptions.

In fact, don't make assumptions at all, you'll hurt yourself.

Your other ships are quite small. So you have maybe 50 000 troops, and that's a stretch.


Funny, you're the first person I've ever heard of to call two Allegiance Star Destroyers small.

From these meger numbers, let's say that 5000 were killed by anti-air defences.


Five thousand? HAHAHAHAHA

No. At best you managed to take down a handful incoming shuttles.

I'm not here to attack in fair conditions. I made very certain that I was targetting specifically anti-air defenses before landing. With a minimal force you'd be able to hit only a handful before they were dispatched by the fighters who flew over head.

That brings you to 45 000 that ever reached the ground.


Again...no.

From there, another 5000 were killed disembarking.


Your numbers are being drawn from thin air. You yourself said there is a very minimal garrison on the planet. You yourself said that militia made up the bulk - which despite the staff trying to say otherwise I agreed to. Militia break easliy...VERY easily and either surrendered, fled, or were destroyed (I stated my numbers, they were not contested).

You stated no numbers and only of one city actually defending. In that city I took my losses, pounded you from the air and took the position. Again you're making up numbers.

Down to 40 000. From that, let's say that half were killed advancing and fighting to gain their positions.


How about let's not. What do you think I did an orbital bombardment for? So that it would be an even fight when I landed? Being hit for six, seven hours straight with turbolasers and air strikes aren't going to yield favorable conditions.

That gives you roughly 20 000 troops


Again, completely wrong.
.

Now, for a little bit of comparison? The United States has somewhere in the region of 200 000 soldiers in Iraq, and is considering sending more to occupy it.


Iraq also has more cities than Abregado-rae according to canon.

Iraq is a relitively small nation.


Umm...it's a country about three quarters the size of California...it's a rather large nation actually. Germany...England...Poland, those are rather small countries.

Iraq...not a small country.

And yet to occupy it, the US requires 200 000 soldiers!


To officially occupy post takeover it takes 200,000 soldiers in a non-Star Wars universe.

Wait a second, I thought you were JUST bitching at me for trying to compare things to reality? Oh that's right I'm "taking it out of context".

Because by your definition, out of context is anything that doesn't favor your arguement.

You have a tenth that number - 20 000 soldiers, attempting to hold an entire planet?


No no no, I've far more than that, you just don't want to believe it.

As well see above...I've been holding what I could and/or surrounding the capitol city. With very few cities on a very unurbanized planet, it's not that hard to hold territory.

Or, you're in control of a very small percentage of the planet.


Or you can quit pulling numbers out of your ass.
  • Posted On: Jan 3 2004 10:55am
Funny, I didn't know you were allowed to edit posts after people responded so that you could make up for past tactical/political mistakes.