I think I shall. You know, this is the only thread Ive ever made on this topic or that has devolved into this topic where people have agreed with me.

Well, not exactly.

I've talked to some native Germans who are now part of the Uni's Deutsch Department once you brought. Most of them sort of just shrugged it off. I found one lady who actually worked at one of the US Air Force bases a long time ago as a secretary. She ended up meeting her husband there, and now they're here...but anyways...I haven't found much resentment.

Of course, none of them were soldiers or people who have your type of honour code, Telan.

A Relay is not neccessary - if American annexation of Iraq and Afghanistan is permitted to continue then so too can the German Annexation of Silesia and Sudetenland etc.

Of course, I think the countries currently holding the Sudetenland and Silesia might object, and probably fight. Though historically speaking, Sudetenland certainly was a part of the Germany.

The bases are superfluous - American interests can be served from their own shores and countries or their naval forces. The territorial sovereignty of a nation must be maintained and the global hypocrisy stopped. If the German Army cannot maintain bases in Poland or France how can the US maintain them in countries where they have no legitimate purpose.

The problem with this all is embedded in old treaties made when shortly after the World Wars. As harsh as this sounds, to the victors go the spoils. And the Victors do indeed write history, and in many cases, the law.

What is certain is that the US bases are not needed as much as they once were.

Let me elaborate by illustrating only one point of many. In the German tongue, Volk meant people as a group or literally people. Volksdeutsch were ethnic German, Volksarmee was the Peoples Army, and Volkswagon was People's Car. With the exception of the latter, that word was forbidden to be spoken when the Ami's came to power. The word 'Personnen' was put in its place by them - not us, and forced on us in schools where the indoctrination of the young began extolling the virtues of the Ami's liberating our pool and wretched souls from the Nazi heel and guarding us against the Russians. Blah blah blah. Another word controlled and manipulated is Reich. It literally means Empire, though over time it began more importantly to signify ours above others, but as a nation you are entitled to a bit of pride. After the war it was phased out and now Imperiales or Imperialen is in place where Reich or Reichs should be.

I wouldn't terribly be surprised about that. This is politics. Words and phrases commonly associated with hostile, or things considered to be wrong by the victors, often get renamed or fall into disuse.

Comrade was certainly used more within the Western world until Communism rose to power. Look at a bunch of epic 19th century writings. It was certainly used as friend, or often, a fellow soldier. But Communism gave it a distaste to many Westerners because of its association with the Communist Party.

What of the decorations borne of blood and fire that were worn only by the proud and brave and respected even by their enemies such as the Ritterkreuz or Kriegmertikreuz?

Again, these are viewed as symbols of the defeated power, must like the above words. Soldiers and some honourable others see past the allegiance to what the medals really stand for: virtues. But not everyone sees that, which is a problem. Because even the virtuous defeated deserve distinction for their accomplishments.

I can't really comment on how Deutschland has become a pawn of nations. In my mind, and many of those around me at the Uni, it isn't. To me, it seems to have thrived, surpassing many of the other European countries around it. And currently, Deutschland is leading the European Union if I remember correctly.

It is a sad state of affairs, Germany now. You cannot ask Germans now, at least any under 60. They have grown up to see their American masters in a different light than those who know what German glory was before the dark cloud of occupation descended from the Alps onto the rest of the land.

Aren't you under 60 Telan?

Yes but I was raised by my grandmother who taught me the way things are supposed to be, not just what things are. I was raised to believe in what she believes in and as such I saw a glimpse if through nothing else but her memory transferred unto me of what our homeland once was, and by god will be again. That she swore and in time I did as well

Not a particular fan of American foreign affairs as I am, I still seem to remember the west side of Germany flourishing and the communist side decaying into dust. So if there is any to blame for the state of affairs in Germany I would think it's the Iron Curtain.

You speak out of ignorance not uncommon for the world these days. I would ask you to read some of my previous statements. The West prospered somewhat compared to the East but at least in the East they knew they were occupied but were still given some sense of purpose - in the West Germany's only function was to act as a staging area for the Ami Military and its proving ground for the showpiece game that was the Cold War. In the West the Amis controlled every aspect of German life; theirs was an insidious occupation, much more so than Russia's. In the West they wielded the most devisive weapon of all - the illusion of freedom. All was well and liberty until something was said or done that challanged the legitimacy or their occupation.

You are luck not to have lived knowing that your every action was subject to the whims and caprice of an occupying force.

Name me an example Telan, of when the US acted on someone in Germany in the modern era. You complain because of your think your military is a puppet of the US? Germany is an economic powerhouse, not only part of the largest economy in the world (the European Union), but it by itself is second only to the US and probably won't be second to anyone for much much longer. You should be proud of your country based on that fact alone.

Honestly, you act as though Germany is Iraq, where german civilians were shot in the streets for suspcious activity.

They were. Things may have gone beyond that to where the shootings happen behind the closed doors and concertine wire of the Ami military installations in our Heimat, but it happens. In many cases, Germany and Iraq share many things. In both:

-The Americans force their governmental structure on a people after the forces they came to combat have been eliminated;
-the Americans seek to build or have built military installations that will become permanent;
-the occupying force refuses to leave when the occupied force states clearly they wish said force to leave;
-the occupying force installs a puppet government that in no way resembles the legitimate form of government in place before said occupation
-the occupying force plans to divide or has divided the occupied nation regardless of the feelings and needs of the occupied people

need I go on?

Germany is a puppet, yes. It is part of the European Union, yes, and a strong part - that is beyond question. However, should it be? Plainly no. Germans do not become part of alliances and governments far away, they expand and conquer and control their own destiny. They hang on fiercely to their national identity...wait, I suppose it does not anymore. The Reichsmark has been replaced by the Euro. One more slice of German individuality gone never to be retained.

Germany is a powerhouse you say? So is the state of California but it is still subject to its masters in Washington DC - as is Germany. The German soldier answers to the Ami Soldier and does not engage freely as he once did. The German military cowtows to the Ami military, our General Staff gone, the Reichswehr gone, the uniforms we were once proud of replaced by designs the Americans consider acceptable.

You think of things from a broader perspective which is laudable but until you are German and understand what I say the EU has no merit. It seeks to amalgamate Europe which is an excellent idea for the weaker countries that cannot stand alone. That Germany has joined it says we cannot stand alone. Britian remains true to itself, why has Germany not? The answer is simple - - the realm of the Queen is not occupied. The Ami bases there are not painful reminders of an occupation but rather given to an ally in a time of war and never kicked out. In Germany we are the forced allies of our enemies, bent to their will as we once did. That we are not strong enough to resist speaks volumes in detraction and makes our ancestors cast out stares of derision at a land that has fallen so far from grace.

Telan, I understand you are proud of your country and all (and I respect that), but you seriously take things to far. Germany is not oppressed I don't care what you think, but until you have been to a country that is truly oppressed you are just whining about nothing, try going to Ethopia, Haiti, or Afghanistan and see how people with faulty leaders, and crumbling economies, and societies live. Why wouldn't you want to be apart of the EU, because you'd be grouped with weaker nations in Europe? That is the EXACT same thinking of Germans that led to both world wars. Germany is 'greater, better, and deserves to crush all others' is exactly how Hilter and Bismarc regarded the rest of the world.


And I meant direct example, not heresay.

I have givne you direct example. Or perhaps you would like something more personal. Very well. The year is 1945. My grandmother's father, my great grandfather has been executed in August of 1944 for his involvement in the bomb plot in July. My grandmother is a Nurse in the Heer, a volunteer. The British come through and according to her act in accordance with the rules of war - the officers are gentlemen and the soldiers behaved. Looting is prohibited and the civilians protected. A week later the area is changed to control of the Americans. A night later my grandmother is caught leaving the field hospital in the company of another nurse - both are raped repeatedly.

This is not occupation?

Is Germany occupied - -I would certainly say so. And I have been to truly occupied countries and the facts speak for themselves. The degree is different but those countries are at least fighting to be free. In Germany the will to win has bene squashed over the past six decades. That is the worst defeat of all.

Are the other nations weaker? Yes! America is different? It orders other nations to do things it is allowed to do - tells North Korea it is prohibited from having nuclear reactors yet American has dozens. Tells other countries they cant have militaries but the US's is massive. The US tells other countries how to run themselves because they aren't run the way the US runs itself - regarding rights and prisoners and politics. If it is not the American way it is not the right way. This is not occupation? This is not global bullying?