This thread continues the one from the R and D forum where we wrongly totally monopolized a thread for our own purposes. For that I know we all apologize. But this needs to be spoken and so we shall speak it.

Thus:


Two world wars? I suppose in some perverse sense then we should take the occupation as a mark of pride that we as a people are such a threat that we require such massive occupation armies so long after we have been subjected and had our national identity destroyed. However, Italy and Japan are both occupied as well.

Let us speak strategically. You say we are occupied because there is still a threat from Russia? Does that mean that the territorial sovereignty of your nation reigns supreme over another? Let me ask the question another way - if Germany becomes hostile towards Canada does that mean that we have a right to build humungous bases in Michigan and station arsenals of nuclear and coventional weapons there, enough to level the everything within a few hundred kilometers? Is it ok then for our military polices to drive through Detroit at their leisure waving German flags?

Unpalatable isnt it, the thought of the mighty 'independent' way of life tramped on by anothers country?

You accuse Germany of being responsible for being a participant in two world wars, which was true. We were participants. But then in World War I, while our beloved Kaiser was a war monger of the time, he did not start the war, that was the Serbians when they assassinated an Archduke which gave Austria Hungary reason to unleash its own troops and the rest followed suit in a manner you can allr ead about by googling ww1. But in this case, why is Serbia not under occupation as well?

Let us move to World War II - that was largely our fault. No one can convolute history to say Germany was forced into a war, we were not. We did what we were good at - fight, conquer, and die. However, let us not forget the Chinese, who now are the largest armed forces on the globe, and their infighting or the genocide of Mao's great leap forward - why the American world police not imposing sanctions on them I wonder? They killed more of each other than we ever did of an enemy fighting force.

Or perhaps if we are accounting for past atrocities let us look at Americas own bloody past - Tippicanoe where as many Indian children and women were slaughtered as soldiers; or the occupation of the Philippines where the natives plainly said thank you for throwing off the Spanish, now you can leave too - but you stayed and oppressed them brutally - more so than we ever did to some of our colonies - I only leave Colonel Liman von Sanders and his loyal askari as testament to our for once noble policy of colonization where we tried to better those we had conquered in the British model.

Let me start out by saying that I have a lot of respect for you, Telan, and what you've been through, but I feel obligated to present a different viewpoint.

Military Occupation: when the control and authority over a territory belonging to a state passes to a hostile army.

(Wikipedia)

Arguably, America and several other allied powers occupied Deutschland shortly after the end of World War II. But in the strictest sense, it wasn't a true occupation. On the Western half, the German people still had a fair amount of control within their internal affairs (the same probably can't be said about Ost Deutschland). Citizens elected leaders, the Bundestag continued to make laws. The Chancellor still reigned. Granted, the Allies did interfere somewhat within these affairs by the military bases. But were the majority of the German people unhappy about this?

It is easy to look at things these days and judge those in the past. But often, we forget the context in which they made those decisions. The world was exceptionally different back then. Deutschland was split into two between two uneasy factions. Factions which were very opposite in ideology, and there was a potential for another world war.

Westen Deutschland was fortunate enough to have many freedoms (voting, legislation, etc) that those of Ost Deutschland did not have. Would the citizens of Westen Deutschland really want to lose the freedoms that they had? Or would they want to protect their freedoms to the fullest extent?

One of the better ways to protect oneself is to have allies. What better allies for freedom than America and the other Western Allies? And that's exactly what did happen. Germany joined NATO on its own accord, further solidifying Western military influence in Deutschland. Bases were built, units were assembled. Not solely for occupation, but for protection of the German people.

German soldiers are often times the finest in the World, but those of Westen Deutschland would be overwhelmed by the massive numbers fielded by the Warsaw Pact. Allied Forces served as a deterrent to that threat.

Granted, with the Cold War now ended, and a reunited Deutschland, there is no reason for massive American and Western forces to be stationed in Germany. And many indeed were transferred out with that de facto war's end. And yet the Ami bases remain.

As do the Ami bases across the world. There are Ami bases from Cuba to Britian to Pakistan. Nearly anywhere in the World, there is probably an Ami base that one could fly to (I'm including air craft carriers). Does this mean that the Vereinigten Staaten are occupying the entire world? Surely not.

Those bases aren't for occupation. Those bases are waystations for units being transferred across the world. A prime example would be Ramstein Air Base.

Granted, it is understandable that needless foreign military power is perturbing to native citizens, but it is not without its benefits. These bases hire German workers, providing income to the German people from foreign coffers. If one base, say Ramstein, shut down, then over 6,200 German workers would lose their jobs. If all the bases shut down, then there would be more economic problems and unemployment to deal with.

Allow me to begin my rebuttal by thanking you for expressing concise thoughts and not automatically labelling me as a Nazi or SS or SA holdout etc etc.

However.

The Ami bases do indeed employ Germans, and this is an economic fact - but that number is a drop in the pond and our unemployment rates could easily be rectified.

I address your point of protection. The Ami bases need not defend Germany as there is no threat in the region - nor was help asked for. I quote one of the foremost experts on politico-strategic thinking, Machiavelli - the greatest form of control is manipulating the illusion of freedom. You say Germans had freedoms - I grant, to a point, we did. But those freedoms were ruthlessly controlled by the Amis to please themselves.

Let me elaborate by illustrating only one point of many. In the German tongue, Volk meant people as a group or literally people. Volksdeutsch were ethnic German, Volksarmee was the Peoples Army, and Volkswagon was People's Car. With the exception of the latter, that word was forbidden to be spoken when the Ami's came to power. The word 'Personnen' was put in its place by them - not us, and forced on us in schools where the indoctrination of the young began extolling the virtues of the Ami's liberating our pool and wretched souls from the Nazi heel and guarding us against the Russians. Blah blah blah. Another word controlled and manipulated is Reich. It literally means Empire, though over time it began more importantly to signify ours above others, but as a nation you are entitled to a bit of pride. After the war it was phased out and now Imperiales or Imperialen is in place where Reich or Reichs should be.

German is a nation that has been befouled more than others who knew where their enemies were and why they were fighting them. This is a more insidious campaign than even the great Machiavelli could have imagined. The German people have been taught and the world has been taught that the occupation is safe, just, and reasonable. There was a time when to insult ones King was an automatic just cause for a duel to the death for honours sake. Now we insult our fallen ancestors simply to please our captors and slowly but surely, relentlessly even, because we have been taught to scorn our past and look to others for aide.

The German Army was once something to be proud of. Now it is only an American puppet. I had those sentiments when I was a boy at the Fahenjunkerschule which the Amis have been trying to close since they came to power. Look at the uniforms of the quote unquote Bundeswehr - grey on black? That is because Feldgrau has been outlawed. What of the decorations borne of blood and fire that were worn only by the proud and brave and respected even by their enemies such as the Ritterkreuz or Kriegmertikreuz? They have been banned as well.

Germany is no state. Germany is a puppet whose masters have pulled the strings so successfully and adroitly that those being manipulated look up and cannot see the strings that bind them only the smiling and assured face of the puppeteer himself.

Deutschland unter alles

Normally, there would be a dozen replies to this. Have people decided that I am right for a change?

Well, Telan, I have to say this. I think that more independence for Germany would be a good thing. I agree with most of your post. However, even you must be able to see the strategic value of allowing Americans to retain a few bases in Germany, both for Germany and for the US. Not only does it foster good relations between the two nations, but it allows strategic deployment of American and/or German troops wherever necessary. I would even argue that the opening of a few German military bases in the US would be a good trade-off, though I'm not sure why they would be needed. The bases in Germany cover North Africa, the Balkans, the former Soviet Union, and provide a relay for troops heading to the Middle East.

A Relay is not neccessary - if American annexation of Iraq and Afghanistan is permitted to continue then so too can the German Annexation of Silesia and Sudetenland etc.

But we wont open than can of wurms, shall we.

The bases are superfluous - American interests can be served from their own shores and countries or their naval forces. The territorial sovereignty of a nation must be maintained and the global hypocrisy stopped. If the German Army cannot maintain bases in Poland or France how can the US maintain them in countries where they have no legitimate purpose.

All your base are belong to us.

Now that just wasn't funny.

*goes to dismember Irtar*

I do so love getting Irtar in trouble. *cackles*

Have at it, Telan; have at it!

I think I shall. You know, this is the only thread Ive ever made on this topic or that has devolved into this topic where people have agreed with me