Firstly, let me say that I don't mean any disrespect to Telan, nor do I want to appear rude or arrogant. However, this is a competitive thread, whereby we are both competing towards opposing outcomes making use of the resources afforded to us, and thus if I feel I have achieved something I do want to have it arbitrated instead of backing down as my overall objective is to win the aforementioned competition.
Telan's most recent post greatly seemed to diminish what I saw as a well-played tactical maneauver which he should legitimately have no defence against. I maneauverd my ships in such a way so that the six Claymore class Battlecruisers that form the 'core' of my fleet were pointing at the heart of three Star Destroyers of his fleet. Facing the top instead of the front, you see what I mean.
I got into this position quite quickly - in fact, the Empire had to roll their ships over so that I was not facing their underbelly. This was in fact a cunning trap, as meant I was facing the top of his ships, allowing me to fire boarding torpedoes right into his heart.
The key advantage of the Claymore is speed and maneauverability, two things which his Star Destroyers lack by comparison, so I declared the Claymores would rush forwards to point-blank, and fire off a salvo of boarding torpedoes before breaking their formation and scattering - sharply turning out of the way and using their limited Pulse shielding to protect themselves from return fire.
Telan reacted to this by declaring that one Star Destroyer had been hit by no torpedoes, as they had all been destroyed by point-defences. The others were hit by less, and were somehow 'contained' - as though they all landed in the same place and deployed as one. This seems inconsistent with what I believe would be the more accurate response - i.e. the targeted star destroyers would probably be hit by all, or nearly all, the torpedoes and would now be dealing with as many as two hundred and forty soldiers (the full troop complement of the Claymore) aboard their ships.
His primary defence is that his shields and point defence guns would be adequete to bring down most of my torpedoes.
I retort, by saying that his shields - especially the weaker particle shields - have taken a sever beating and are almost certainly down. Before this, his Star Destroyers took salvos of my very large Particle Projector cannons, which considering there are two Claymores for every Star Destroyer and the salvos were on target would probably bring down his shields. That was augmented by a vicious broadside exchange combined with all the fire we could muster while charging directly at them. If their shields were to withstand all of this, it would be quite a feat.
As for his point defence guns, my two-pronged argument against their usefulness in this situation is a) how close and how fast the torpedoes struck and b) the defences of the torpedoes. Each torpedo carries twenty men and is really a large shuttle in it's own right. The front third of a Claymore is little more then a large firing mechanism for these torpedoes. They are shielded and armored. These are not maneauverable fighters or tiny missiles but hulking fists, passing at point-blank range.
The Claymore's great ability is it's speed and maneauverability, as I said. I reported it getting close, firing, and turning away. To expect the enemy to be able to bring both enough firepower to bring down the torpedoes at that odd angle as well as in that brief moment of time seems very unlikely indeed. Were I firing a volley at mid range right at him, then sure, I'd expect half would be lost easily, but these are not pathetic nor any lower tech then your own new technology, and to dismiss them as such may be all right for an Imperial character, but not for the roleplayer.
But to cut the techno-babble and all that jazz, I think the most significant point is that it was a skilled maneauver using a weapon the Empire has not fought before and is unprepared to defend itself against. I feel I have outwitted Telan to some respect, by negating the effectivness of his powerful weapons and moving him into a position for me to use mine. All he has to defend himself with are weapons not meant for the task and not in a good position to do so in the first place - it would not be by his own virtues for him to foil me here, and his technology certainly doesn't seem in any measure greater then mine to warrant it.
That is the gist of my argument, more or less. The Boarding torpedoes should be on target and a pressing concern, as I am in an excellent position and Telan lacks both a strategy or a superior weapon to defend himself with.
I tend to agree with Dolash. Brushing off damage like that is total BS, Telan. You don't need to have your ships crippled, but at the very least, don't just shrug and say "missed me! Pffffffft!"
My position - I am not maintaining that the Imperial ships of the day do have better weapons but we do have IC a discipline the Coalition lacks. Secondly -we are still in formation.
The shields of all three battleships are engaged and have been hit but not once has a post mentioned those shields collapsing. Thus, I maintain that since the torpedoes have no munitions of their own with which to cripple or reduce shield integrity, they would be eaten up by the shields as mere debris. Deflector shields were created as a defense against spacial debris and projectile weapons. Without any explosives, the boarding torpedoes resemble the former.
On that nature of ship-board defenses. Defensive banks are mounted on the Reigns and the Astrus and would have an easy time laying low the slow moving torpedoes heading at them. They are controlled by a single battery crew which is supplimented by droids at each individual emplacement. The guns are fast tracking and fast firing.
Also on station is a screen of TIE Defenders, Mark III, which have been held in picket positions. Picket positions by tactical definition do not simply give chase beyond a certain range without the express orders of that they are guarding. No such order was given by Imperial command and so said fighters are still in their posotions and would have contributed to the reduction of the numbers of in-bouned torpedoes.
The Imperial formation rolled on its axis to combat Coalition tactic of subverting the plane of battle. The Coalition ships continued to attack and entered the confines of the Imperial formation thus allowing to fall prey to fire from all sides. The Imperial warships present are heavy cruisers and battleships and have little maneuverability and horrid speed. However, they have very thick skin and are festooned with weapons. Coalition ships are very fast and agile but lightly armed and armored.
Also, by now, Dolash was left with I believe four of the longer cruisers.
By entering the formation Dolash subjected his ships to fire from the deployed assault craft - missile boats, blast boats, assault shuttles - and TIE Defenders as well as the plethora of ship-borne guns. By closing the range of battle he allowed my gunners a greater rain of fire -they had targets closer and had to traverse their mounts much less.
Boarding torpedoes would work against a severely damaged battleship. However, both Reigns and the Relentless are still in excellent health and have their shilds up albeit are by that point running at 70 perecent.
[font=Times New Roman]First off, I’m willing to say that I’m not technically involved in this, so if the staff wishes I will stay out of this from now on. Secondly I didn’t (and don’t) want this to end up into a OOC argument about fleeting (hence why I was trying to stay away). But I feel the need to correct Telan on a few points.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]1. You said the shields weren’t breached. On the Astrus, in certain parts, they certainly were.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]Quote from Dolash’s first post involving the Coalition ships firing on Astrus<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]The second volley of Coalition Projector cannons went off, one or two crashing and disappating into shields, the other shots ringing and exploding into shards on the armor, leaving dents and slash marks all along where they struck. Hardly the crippling barrage he'd hoped for, but the effect was still impressive.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]End quote.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]I personally wasn’t expecting you to let go the shields being partly taken down, but it is partially reasonable, considering you have 2 mainline and 4 backup ships firing on just the Astrus, combined with the Particle Cannon’s design of being a heavy, heavy weapon. However in your next post you allowed this to go with your mention of:<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]the shots that were fired either went wide of glanced off sloped armor and shields.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]End Telan’s quote.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]The key part there would be the glanc[ing] off sloped armor. Indicating the shields were down in some sections.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]2. Your said your troops have a discipline GC lacks. Possible, but how much does that really matter, Dolash is just asking his troops to do some pretty standard stuff.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]3. Your point about your fleet being in formation. Sure, its in formation, but in the thread its been Rped out that they are badly positioned in that formation (not actually pointing towards the GC fleet)<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]4. <o:p></o:p>[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Quote from your OOC post.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]By entering the formation Dolash subjected his ships to fire from the deployed assault craft - missile boats, blast boats, assault shuttles - and TIE Defenders as well as the plethora of ship-borne guns.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]So you say that your TIE Defenders, missile boats, blast boats and assault shuttles are ignoring the Frigates, Gunships and Fighters ripping them to pieces to assault the Claymores attacking them, good to know. Don’t expect them to be around for very long. Not to mention that many had already been destroyed by the fighters/gunships before the Claymores even broke into the formation.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]5. The Claymore’s are as unshielded and unarmored as the rest of the Second Wave ships. It has the same weak hull, but this is bolstered by the hull be made thicker and better in some key areas. As well the shields are much stronger.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]6. Why it isn’t feasible for you to have destroyed all (or even most) of the boarding torpedoes.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]All I need is one quote straight from the Longsword Frigate R&D explaining the boarding torpedoes.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]The entire process, from launch to deployment, has taken as little as six seconds from the best teams, and the armour and shielding of the Torpedo makes them near-impossible to destroy during the brief trip from one ship to the other.<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font=Times New Roman]7. How would your fleet somehow destroy 2 of the heavy coalition ships, while still having shields up at 70% when the Coalition ships outnumber you 2 to 1 (though they are a bit shorter) and are in turn concentrating all firepower on your heavy ships (which, by some miracle, only lost 30% shield efficiency)?<o:p></o:p>[/font]
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[font='Times New Roman']That’s what I have to add, my apologies if some parts seem slightly inappropriate and less polite than they should be.[/font]
I will not be party to a vicious OOC debate the likes of which has killed Fleeting before. I will edit my post since I am receiving NO support or rationale from anyone here.
To quickly vinidcate myself, however: it is impossible for torpedoes fired that fast to NOT detonate or disintegrate on impact with the shields/armor. A journey of six seconds at point blank range would kill the entire boarding party due to decelleration and impact. The defensive banks were designed to combat fighters of which these torpedoes resemble and they thusly CAN be destroyed.
The fighters/assault craft are NOT concentrating on the longer cruisers - they are in formation about the task force and hitting everything. Do you have no tactical sense???
I do not HAVE to be pointed at the GC fleet to be highly effective - all vessels engaged are designed with broadside mentality which means the enemy needs to be parallel or running at angle which said guns can swivel in their casements and rotate on their turrets.
The Coalition ships outnumber me but my ships are heavier. Simply stated.
This makes no sense - you say they are unshielded but also have better shields???
Imperial ships are made to take pounding and continue to fight. Coalition ships are meant to fight and run. In an even fight volley for volley the Empire can last longer.
I must agree, in that that is the crazy. We have shields and armor, as do all second wave ships. Jan, are we talking about the same ships here? Also, no offence Jan, but since you're a member of GC and not staff, your arguments will always come off biased for your side.
Also, Telan, I really don't want to upset you with this. It's just a reasoned debate, a civil dispute to be arbitrated by staff so that we can continue quickly with the thread. It's not meant to be an insult or something like that.
That was supposed to be there are not as unshielded (I was in a hurry and obviously forgot to type the not). My bad.
Dolash I know they will come across as biased, in fact they are a little biased, because I'm obviously arguing for our side. Same as Telan's, or any fleeter's for that matter, will be biased, because they are always arguing for their side, not arguing for both sides (excluding the staff).
I must protest on a wholly different matter. I am willing to allow extreme boardings by those torpedoes which I did, editing out any countermeasures.
However - regardless of shielding, once a ship is disabled, pummelled by turbolasers, STL-4s, and ion cannon, they cannot simply be there again. Rejuvenated and whatnot - that is nigh god moding. I am sorry, but I cannot think of another name for it. Pulse shielding means little more than a way to take all your casualties and use them again. Let us take a Coalition Longsword or whatever they are called: hit by heavy turbolasers and at least one STL-4 shot would have its entire armored carapace destroyed and extreme ddamage done ot it - most weapon systems would have been vaporized, power nodes obliterated, and great deal of damage done to the engines, no doubt an entire salvo given off in that direction when the shields were done since we are admittedly frustrated with the enemy's speed. These ships cannot simply reappear.
Also - the boarding parties.
I said the Imperial Fleet Assault Corps was dispatched on all three battleships to deal with the enemy. The Imperial FAC is trained to repell boarders and do its own boardings - also, their numbers are in the hundreds around each breach in the line as it were and their numbers are growing - the compliment of security troops on each vessel is in the THOUSANDS. The azguards are not invulnerable and one man when outnumbered 10 to one would be facing whtiering fire from blaster rifles would die.
I also stated that all of the gun crews not killed had wisely evacuated - there is no one left except the FAC troops they are fighting, and his peers would kill their comrade before he gave up vital information or would do it simply because being shot is less painful than being suffocated or having ones neck crushed - I know I would rather be shot.
I am willing to undergo some damage to my guns and perhaps the power relays in that area but you cannot simply have less than a hundred men - by now reduced to about fifty at best by counter-attack - storm out of a strong and dense - not to mentioned in-depth - blockade of specially trained soldiers. They have their own heavy weapons - they would be using grenades, heavy blaster rifles, and some repeating blasters such as E-webs and the Maxim-Machine blaster. To have the Azgards simple moving out of the gunnery areas in which they have contained is also sheer moding.
I am sick with the flu but in my opinion, while Telan makes sense about the ship to ship stuff, the security "in the thousands" seems excessive. But, let's say it is in the thousands, even so, they all wouldn't be in the same hall or the same door trying to stop a boarding party. You'd have a small fraction at best at the point of action as the rest of the security are ..securing other areas of the ship.
Just as Dolash can't have all 100 people in the same area charging. He might leave some behind to secure escape route.
At most, perhaps 10 men vs 10 men... because you simply don't have 100 troops marching down the corridor of a ship and expect them to be effective. I believe in boarding action, the most men committed to a fighting front, the less effective they will be.
I mean, you guys have seen corridors on ships. They aren't that wide to accomodate 50 troops let alone 100 (unless we are talking about a hanger deck).
By packing more men in smaller space only increases your body count and lowers overall effectiveness no matter their training.
I haven't read the latest post yet so my opinions are based only on what I read in this thread.
