After declaring the Panacea available to all, it was posted by Demos that people were dying from it and it was horrible and we were pushing it on people yadda yadda yadda. My original response was 'How awful! They're purposely politicising something that would benefit them just so they won't look dependant on us! Even though it would protect them from, say, phage missiles!'

I was soon to learn, however, that in the opinion of Demos this is not just propaganda. Despite no comment to me, no roleplay chronicalling the occurance, and no real protest in the OOC forum, he seems to feel that the Panacea is an illegitimate R&D and thus is performing terribly, often causing ill those vaccinated.

Now, I am fairly sure under the new rules I am clear. And I discussed the R&D frequently with Ahnk, who seemed to me to be of the opinion that the Panacea was worthy. I have the roleplay which covered the problem of different races and genomes, as well as just how it operates and successful testing. It's a solid concept, and there is some precedent of Nanomachines being used to enhance people in starwars in the past, especially in R&Ds.

I would like a ruling, if I may, as to wether the Panacea is functional or not before ANYONE proceeds. I find it very difficult to imagine that the Panacea should be a dud, but the nature of the decision is important as I will need to know wether it works or not to craft the nature of my responses.

ok... first of all, I must say that I have not read your roleplay regarding Panacea.


By way of reminders however are the following excerpts from the TRF & R&D Guidelines:

The #1 and ONLY Rule: What could logically work is what will work. This is otherwise known as the Common Sense rule.


Please note that there is no more approval for R&D submissions.

But how will moderators and staff keep people from abusing this open R&D system? Simple. If someone does not have common sense when it comes to R&D's (design and use) they will no longer be allowed to post in R&D section and they will lose R&D privileges.

In light of these guidelines, let's take a look at the Panacea situation (and other similar "cure-alls"):


First off, remember, just because a 500 word roleplay is done does not mean that Panacea (or ANY R&D) will function the way it is intended.

Example: If Simon Kaine did an R&D for an ISD that can kill ESD's with a single shot, just because he roleplays 500 words does not mean his R&D will function as he intends. It would be an abuse of the R&D system (especially given there are no more approvals given) and obviously not realistic no matter how logically (no matter how solid the idea) he would have roleplayed it.

So, to answer Dolash's question, is Panacea functional. If he completed the roleplay then I would say yes. But again, not in the way that perhaps Panacea was intended to function. ie: as a cure-all to every ailment under the stars.

As an answer to Phage, I can see that and if his R&D were actually done specifically for that, fine. But I draw the line at "all conceivable illnesses and virus". Basically, Panacea is just the reverse of Phage. Both use molecular machines pumped into a body not designed to house machines.

It takes years of research to find cures for one specific ailment let alone eveyr ailment, let alone for every species! Are we saying that the Coalition gathered all the different species making it up, injected each one with every sort of disease and then tried Panacea to see if it would cure each one? Just like that?

That there is research towards that goal, I don't mind if that's where they are heading but to simply come out and annouce a new wonder drug (being machines pumped into bodies) to cure everything that ails you and distribute it openly is ludicrous (imo).

So, I do not believe this to be a cure-all and while it might cure some of the more common viruses of perhaps the "main" species making up the Coalition, the researchers would not be able to conceive of every disease that might strike in the future.


So yes, I believe there will be instances where Panacea doesn't work. Probably not the grand failure that Drayson is promoting though. Remember that is propaganda. Also I do not believe that it is the grand success that Dolash reports because, yours too, is propaganda.

The same opinion holds for Belgradi's wonder drug. And since his characters are greedy ass bastards, I am not surprised at his tactic with propaganda. Actually, his propaganda is a bit original and remains "in character" which I found refreshing.

Actually, the same opinion holds for Phage. There will be instances where it just doesn't work. There is always a percentage of failure (ie: machines don't activate, programming wiped, injection system failure, alien biology too alien, whatever..)


So, to summarize:

Is Panacea an illigitiment R&D? No. But then again, it's legitimacy will really be determined by it's use.

I would caution to be careful in this. Be as realistic as you can (in this fantasy land of ours) and as moderate as you can and your R&D's will remain. Remember, because there is no approval, misusing or creating super uber aka not being reasonable, logical, or fair R&Ds will result in your being prohibited from creating R&Ds again.



In my humble opinion,

As for Propaganda/roleplaying goes, we have to remain IC. What if BDE reversed Phage into a wonder cure as well and offered it on the open market? Does that mean every government will simply say "gosh, golly, those Dragons sure have our interests at heart?"

Yeah, whatever!

So I wouldn't be too surprised with TNO's response to blindly accept GC claims.

Maybe it's just a phobia of having little machines pumped into their bodies? (which you pretty much claimed to have done with 95% of your population).

My only concern with THAT statement with regards to your ideology: Is did you give your citizens the choice of having it or not? I can tell you right now that if the FDA (which takes years to test one drug) promoted nanotechnology saying it was the cure-all, there'd be a good portion of the country wary. There are quite alot of people nowadays that are wary of "modern medicine" and turning to more natural means of healing. What I am saying is, most today, have a choice. Do your citizens have that same choice? With the figure at 95%, perhaps not.

Which would then mean you are more like the Empire than you let on.


So, welcome, Comrade. :)

Allow me to clarify. TNO's response is based on two things:

1) Propaganda. Naturally, the Empire is wary of anything the Coalition simply offers to anyone and everyone. The fact that the Coalition is injecting it's citizens with this, evidently by force, is a genuine rights concern of the Empire. And some damn good "Look, they're bad!" propaganda.

2) The technical possibility of the project. IMO, it is, in its current form, not possible. I raised technical concerns that were not covered in any substantial form, most of which Simon covered in his previous post. I do have plans to conduct my own RP which examines the R&D and offers 'proof' to my propaganda.

I'll have more later, but that's the basics.

*grumbles*

I wouldn't have minded hearing these opinions a little earlier. I would hardly call the couple replies in the R&D forum much beyond a few cursory queries, that gave the impression solely that more information was required, information I had hoped was conveyed in the RP. Indeed, the fact that none replied after the RP was added to the R&D suggested to me that there was no longer any problem - for, as the rules suggest, R&Ds no longer need approval and thus silence equals acceptance.

Although using the testimony of Ahnk to support an entire argument would be unfair, I would at the least mention that he found it fine, and that it is not unreasonable. In a realm of fantasy where things happen in flashes of heroism or genius, it is not unreasonable to think that such a similar stroke could not occur in such a field.

Consider that the majority of the technology was probably already available - Star Wars has a highly advanced setting, and much of the concept is already available today. It was really only a matter of taking that technology and making a concentrated and skillful effort to combining it together to form something amazing.

The concept that we could not create tiny machines to protect a body suggests that the scientific support of quite a number of other projects are brought into question. The Cree'Ar, as I have experienced, are capable of very quickly zombifying any creature they wish in a matter of moments. The Black Dragons have similar devices that, for example, let them live forever.

Is it really that amazing that we could create a device that would protect the body from such threats as the common cold, or a tumour? If a droid can weld two sheets of metal together at exact angles, surely a nano-droid could cut a tumour out with surgical precision? Or blast harmful bacteria not unlike a highly advanced droid turret?

The problem at the root of the issue, however, is probably the fear that it is 'overpowered'. I will tackle this one from a number of angles. Firstly, the concern that it would be a totally unfair advantage is unnessecary. It would protect my people from disease and most forms of biological warfare, which there is little of in a tactical sense. Also, if I distribute it to many other people, then I lose the benefit of exclusivity.

Secondly, there may be the fear that this will open the door to even farther-reaching technology, such as people using this to justify releasing nano-droids that make people perfect shots, or immune to damage by lasers. This is not a concern, since the scientific groundwork of these machines would make any varation design completely impracticle for anything else.

Lastly, is the concern that this is 'un-starwarsy' and a distinct break from setting. I would ask is it? In a world of droids and cities that span planets and flying cars and galactic travel, the thought that people could be spared of the ancient ravages of pestilence is hardly such a distant concept. Indeed, I am surprised that hasn't been accomplished already, considering how much technology is available.

Finally, out of the entire issue, is the question as to wether I would be able to make it available to everyone, and wether they would take it. I can assure that my own people would be willing to, and can name a number of reasons including the endorsment of the government (which has gained considerable respect recently due to post-coup success), the desire for good news in a time of trouble, and the fact that the Black Dragons can live forever, and have advertised the fact. It hardly seems far-fetched to them considering what else is in the galaxy.

Also, the Panacea should be applicable to most of the Coalition (I would say 95%) because the last-minute stroke of genius that allowed for the creation of the Panacea was for it to be designed to use local DNA signitures to determine the nature of the body and thus what were its' threats. Should that prove inadequete, most of the races of the Coalition have been advanced for a long time, and thus genome-mapping projects have almost-certainly been completed at some time in their history. Those that haven't probably wouldn't take long considering the vast amount of technology, history, and experience geneticists would have at their disposal.

I would ask you to consider these things.

Is Panacea an illigitiment R&D?

No. But then again, it's legitimacy will really be determined by it's use.


I would think that Ahnk's testimony would support this conclusion.

Now to your points:

The concept that we could not create tiny machines to protect a body suggests that the scientific support of quite a number of other projects are brought into question. The Cree'Ar, as I have experienced, are capable of very quickly zombifying any creature they wish in a matter of moments. The Black Dragons have similar devices that, for example, let them live forever.

In roleplay, how many different species have been zombified by the Cree-Ar? How many people total? One? Two? So where does this "any creature they wish in a matter of moments" come from?

Can the Cree Ar zombify a creature? I don't see why not.
Can Panacea cure the Phage? I don't see why not.

Can Cree Ar zombify any and every living thing in the galaxy in a matter of moments? I would reasonably have to say no.

Can Panacea cure any and every virus/disease in the galaxy (past, present and future) in a manner of moments? I would reasonably have to say no.

As to The Black Dragon Empire's claim of immortality. Really, how much has been really roleplayed regarding it? Is every transition clean? Is every initiation from biological mind to software made without incident? You are trying to justify your R&D claims with another claims. I can make an R&D that claims to make all Imperials immortal too. That nothing anyone can concieve will ever kill the human body. I can make all sorts of claims and guess what? There is no staff approval. But I guarantee, the moment I impliment it in roleplaying practice I will get all sorts of hell.

I could use the same arguements you do. Sheesh.

Don't you see that?


Is it really that amazing that we could create a device that would protect the body from such threats as the common cold, or a tumour? If a droid can weld two sheets of metal together at exact angles, surely a nano-droid could cut a tumour out with surgical precision? Or blast harmful bacteria not unlike a highly advanced droid turret?

Common cold, tumors and Phage are hardly: "any and all conditions" found to plague man, alien and beast.

It's not the common cold, tumors or Phage that concerns me. It is the "any and all conditions" that concerns me.

Hell, why don't I make a personal shield that deflects any and all things pitted against it no matter it's shape, size, weight or form?


The problem at the root of the issue, however, is probably the fear that it is 'overpowered'. I will tackle this one from a number of angles. Firstly, the concern that it would be a totally unfair advantage is unnessecary. It would protect my people from disease and most forms of biological warfare, which there is little of in a tactical sense. Also, if I distribute it to many other people, then I lose the benefit of exclusivity.

This is a contradiction. First, Panacea is for "any and all conditions". Now you say it protects from disease and most forms of biological warefare, of which there is little at the current time.

Which is it? any and all or is it subjective?



Secondly, there may be the fear that this will open the door to even farther-reaching technology, such as people using this to justify releasing nano-droids that make people perfect shots, or immune to damage by lasers. This is not a concern, since the scientific groundwork of these machines would make any varation design completely impracticle for anything else.

"Since the scientific groundwork of these machines would make any varation design completely impracticle for anything else." If this were true, then why state the following: Only the most vital and confidential notes on the Panacea are to be witheld, to eliminate the risk of someone tampering with or perverting the Panacea.

Don't say it cannot be perverted according to your "design" if you are already taking steps to cover your IC-butt from such a situation.


Lastly, is the concern that this is 'un-starwarsy' and a distinct break from setting. I would ask is it? In a world of droids and cities that span planets and flying cars and galactic travel, the thought that people could be spared of the ancient ravages of pestilence is hardly such a distant concept. Indeed, I am surprised that hasn't been accomplished already, considering how much technology is available.


This is a non-arguement as we already have techs and races "un-Starwarsy" in the TRF universe. Don't know why this was brought out.


Also, the Panacea should be applicable to most of the Coalition (I would say 95%) because the last-minute stroke of genius that allowed for the creation of the Panacea was for it to be designed to use local DNA signitures to determine the nature of the body and thus what were its' threats. Should that prove inadequete, most of the races of the Coalition have been advanced for a long time, and thus genome-mapping projects have almost-certainly been completed at some time in their history. Those that haven't probably wouldn't take long considering the vast amount of technology, history, and experience geneticists would have at their disposal.

Well, if you are going to play that card, by the same token every canon ship is so outdated and obsolete one wonders why we are still using them. If technology of spaceflight has been around for thousands upon thousands of years, one thinks there would have been much improvement in this area.

In any event, you are using the past to say that multiple races across thousands of light years (at the same time) were working on a genome mapping project all the while dealing with Old Republic Issues, Clone Wars and Separatist, Rise of the Empire and subsquent Civil War.

Focused little buggers they were.


Also, the Panacea should be applicable to most of the Coalition (I would say 95%)..

lol... well I won't argue what you do with your group. If you want to magically lose diversity and say everyone suddenly wants their bodies full of robots, go ahead. I was just stated that it doesn't seem reasonable to assume that but this really doesn't affect your R&D.




In any event:

Is Panacea an illigitiment R&D?

No. But then again, it's legitimacy will really be determined by it's use.


This is still true. Go ahead and roleplay with it if you feel comfortable with what you've written. You overstep the bounds the worst that can happen is you lose your R&D privileges. So no biggie.


But don't get all in a hissy fit if others spout counter Propaganda that may or may not be lies.

Whoa, hang on a minute there skippy.

I didn't find it fine. We did work on what I saw as issues but iirc you had to leave. I considered Pancea a work in progress, and then you posted it anyway. I still had some issues with it and there were still questions in my head, but in any case, it wasn't my call.

Defending my steed, I've never claimed that the nano'tera conversion was "a matter of moments" affair. It takes a few seconds for the nano'tera to incapacitate the victim, and after that. can take minutes or hours to convert their crerbelum to their purposes. It doesn't really matter who or what... it does take time to find the brain, but everyone has at least one brain.

And if we're talking about unrealistic and unpractical R&Ds I think the last person to throw stones should be empress Demo.

In this case, though, Pancea has problems, but you guys let eden pass which, in practical application, is the same even if the methodology is different.

Ooh, low blow. That was years ago (you know you've been here to long when something was 'years' ago... holy shit). Anyway, I think the idea was valid. It was just very, very poorly implimented.

That being said, even you must admit most of my recent R&Ds have been much easier.

There is no pass fail with R&D's guys. Some can offer suggestions on R&D's posted but it is up to the designer sense of reasonableness/unreasonableness. If it is unreasonable in practical application, then obviously the person cannot be trusted to create more R&D's.

With regards to Ahnk and Gue and Drayson's R&D's, the real rule of thumb is how they are used and roleplayed. Given that there is not alot of info or use of them in roleplay, then yes, there is really nothing to say about them.

And really, there is not much to say about yours Dolash (unless you wish to impliment the suggestions that others have brought up regarding Panacea). Barring that, you really haven't used it that much (other than a 500 word rp).

The only misunderstanding was Drayson's query about approval for your R&D which was straightened out.

Anything else is just you responding to Propaganda pieces.

I didn't like your last R&D, Dray.

I noticed. But that was an issue of production, not a technical issue.