Kal: atm, the probes are just spread out behind the Imperial fleet. Since your fleet (I think) is not yet within our sensor range, nothing has been sent in your direction (yet). ;)

Kas: Kraken's thread manifest is under dispute. Basically, he posted a manifest based on what he thought he had. Simon told him that the shipyard "cut off", for ships unable to be used in the thread, comes at the date Ahnk posted his OOC manifest, as opposed to the date Kraken started the thread.

With that in mind, Kraken added the ships that were part of his Home Defence Fleet to his manifest of ships at Vladet.

This raises an interesting question: Kraken stated that his Home Defence Fleet was at Vladet in the beginning of the IC thread. Our group manifest lists said Home Defence Fleet in its entirity (I believe). Therefor, is Kraken limited to the ship's he initially posted, or the ships stated by our manifest as being in the Home Defence Fleet, since he also said earlier than said HDF was there?

Hope that clears things up for you...


Edit - I should have made clear in my manifest; the Off-Station reinforcements have full starfighter compliment as well. Starfighter support consists of TIE Defenders, Skipray Blastboats, and Missile Gunboats.

Kas: As I understood it, I think you are confusing two sets of OOC Manifests. One for the group and one for the thread.


If Ahnk was saying our group manifest surged upward by about 200%, I am assuming he meant that when I first acknowledged that the TNO manifest needed to be updated, it was from December 15th, 2003. Before Ahnk placed his OOC manifest, we updated it by including ships built as well as throwing some ships away.

I must confess that at the moment it isn't pretty because it is a direct copy and paste from each protectorate individual manifest that we keep in our private forum.


The reason (as I understand it) that Kraken edited the group manifest on the 9th was because he came to me saying that his ships were posted twice.. or double and said they needed to be removed. I simply said "ok" and went on with business not really realizing how "it'd look". To be honest, I didn't really think anyone would have a problem with us losing ships.


As for the thread manifest of Kraken, I was under the impression that he posted his ships and then removed some because he said that though their construction was complete, it was not complete at the start of the thread.

That didn't make sense to me and I told him that it did not matter whether his ships were completed after the thread started. It would be ships being built or built after Ahnk placed his OOC manifest (thus turning the storyline roleplay into a fleet roleplay where fleet rules would begin to apply) that would be affected.

So, I believe he put them back on the thread manifest.


Kraken, if I am mistaken, let me know but that is how I understood things.
Anyway, you should probably let Kas know how many vessels (or what ships) were duplicated for your edit of the group manifest.

Omnae: The way that it was in the thread, I originally posted what I had in the fleets before my build completed, due to the thought I had that they could not be posted in the manifest. When you told me that this was not the case, I went back in and added the ships that were completed as part of the build into their assigned slots. This consists roughly of 3 Messiah ACSS, 4 Archangel SDs, 2 Allegiance SDs, 4 Victory SDs, and 4 Illustrious FACs.

EDIT:
Kas: When I discovered my mistake, on the 9th, was that I had first posted my ships deployed into their individual fleets, minus the ships that had been built yet (since I thought they were in jeopardy), and just a listing of the ships period, including the ones that were built. So, since my ships that were in the build are to be no matter what, I simply deleted the listing that didn't show the built ships.

Now that we've explained what happened three times... heh.

And oh yeah, one other issue I wanted to bring up. Brutus, your MC-90 has already been disabled by the combined power of 4 planetery ion cannons, and an ISD. I don't think your ship is going to be raising shields or firing external weaponry anytime soon.

If Ahnk was saying our group manifest surged upward by about 200%

My problem is not with their group manifest when I mention the spike, but with Kraken's in system manifest.

Kraken posted a manifest. Once I saw the ships he had in system, it was about double or triple the estimates that Gue and I had drafted. Isstal's numbers are about what I thought he would bring, ditto for Kaine. So, I posted OOC that I was suprised to see so many ships and was having second thoughts.

And then, within the hour, extremely conveniently, Kraken editted his manifest updwards. The only thing that stayed the same was the shield/cannons on the surface. The VSDs jumped from 12 to 16. The Messiahs jumped from 1 to 4. This is extremely fishy, and Kraken's "editting down" is far from complete if it even began, as several of the editted in ships still appear in his manifest. If he's allowed to edit his manifest then I don't see why I can't go ahead and edit in mine. Kaine was the one who wanted me to post a manifest. I did that without hesitation. He is the one who wanted me to send a manifest of my reinforcements to Kas. I did that without hesitation. He is also the one who encouraged Kraken to edit his manifest. The whole reason why we were posting reinforcements was to prevent a "mines bigger" arms race and it's completely nullified if Kraken can at will edit in more and more ships, for whatever reason.

My problem with their group manifest is that it is outdated past the war with the Galactic Coalition. It carries a disclaimer saying it is pending confirmation of losses from Lupercus. Whether they just updated it or not, it still isn't completely up to date. THAT is my problem.

Isstal raises an interesting question.

Therefor, is Kraken limited to the ship's he initially posted, or the ships stated by our manifest as being in the Home Defence Fleet, since he also said earlier than said HDF was there?

Logically, I would say the originals. Remembering the difference between in character time and out of character time. In character, the thread has been going on for... maybe a day or two. But ships take months to build. The builds at that planet or anywhere else at the start of the thread would not logistically be complete at the start of the thread or at any time during it. Thus, I would say they are void.

This obviously isn't my call to make. It's just my personal feeling on the matter.

And oh yeah, one other issue I wanted to bring up. Brutus, your MC-90 has already been disabled by the combined power of 4 planetery ion cannons, and an ISD. I don't think your ship is going to be raising shields or firing external weaponry anytime soon.

Brutus brings up a good point in that you disabled his ships and the ones he hijacked way, way too fast. Counterance to that point, he hijacked them illegally and rediculously quickly. I will say this, if it was an in-character attack then he's fine. If it was an attack involving assets, it was godmoding on both sides and thus we might as well just ignore the whole thing happened. So... I believe that TNO should on their next round finish the disabling of the MC-90 and we can call it legal, both IC and OOC.

But it's not like he'll be doing any signifigant damage in any case.

Was I wrong in that presumption? If not, I can edit. I may have misread the past posts.

No, I arrived via c-velocity conduit, you just wouldn't have been able to see it. I'm also wondering if you were indeed referring to me, or if you were referring to another conduit of your own. Your post is also out of order, but it doesn't matter to me and I'm willing to let that slide.

There is one further issue I have with you Isstal, regarding your post in the In-Character news and propoganda forum. We should discuss it in private and I ask that until we do the thread be disregarded in the timeline.

1. Brutus MC-90 does not affect TNO's OOC manifest since, as far as TNO is concerned, his post is simply storyline (no OOC fleet manifest). His posts only further the "story" along. Not the fleet roleplaying action.


2. If you are talking about yours and Gue's estimates as to what Kraken has or doesn't have, I must wonder where you are getting those numbers from? His storyline posts? If so, that is not really a good reference and I would expect differences.


3. You are the one who is hijacking a storyline thread and turning it into a fleet thread. If you expect to dish out anything that affects our ship manifests then you must have an OOC manifest. If you are just attacking in storyline, then I misunderstood you and we can do away with the manifests.

It seemed you wanted to do something that affected our manifests.. which is why I called for you to post an OOC manifest. You mentioned you also had reinforcements on the way. But since TNO had yet to post their manifest and I didn't want it to be a "who's got more numbers" game, I told you to send a copy to Kas and not post it publicly until we were committed.

TNO posted their manifests and Drayson also posted his reinforcements in public.

Kraken posted his manifest as well. It was not until later that he was grumbling that he could not post his last build because it finished after the thread started which I thought was ridiculous. The thread in question was a storyline thread to begin with. The rule about not posting ships built after a thread is for a fleet roleplay. The thread we are playing does not make that transition into a fleet roleplay until it is identified as one by the posting of an OOC manifest.

(example: Let's take CoC.. took 2 years to write. What if, on the second year, I hauled off and attacked Vinda Corp? Does that mean he can't use any ships he built since the CoC thread started? That would be bullshit. If I planned to hijack the thread and attack Seth, he would have use of his ships up to the time of my posting an OOC manifest for the attack in the thread. Even though IC (after 2 years of OOC roleplaying) only a month or two IC has passed.)


Does this make sense?

So since Kraken could use those ships he put them in. The reason for the edit was the confusion from having his storyline thread hijacked by you in the first place.

If you had just started another thread opening with an OOC manifest of your attack, Kraken wouldn't have been confused and edited because he would know that builds after that thread started are on hold.

He is not going to edit in more ships anymore.

Now you tell me.


@#@#$@!


Then what the hell are we arguing about? If you did not intend this to be a fleet roleplay, why didn't you just say so when I requested the manifest. Why tell me you are bringing in reinforcements as if we are doing a fleet roleplay?


(takes the typing of the past few days and tries to make a planetary takeover with it).

So what? Kal told you over AIM or something that this isn't a fleet RP?

Errrrrr... yeah we talked on AIM, but we haven't hammered anything out for sure.