FYI - Ultrachrome - The Rebel Faction

FYI - Ultrachrome

Posts: 1865

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on Ultrachrome and the Confederation's use of it, and thus, I would like to clear those things up.

1) Ultrachrome is a compound (according to Wookiepedia, and has been RPed as such during the opening Kashan threads...). Meaning that it's something that simply isn't mined and then slapped onto a hull. Instead, it's a mixture of different elements with precise ratios of each element; very much like durasteel. In this lies the reason why the Confederation has been the only one to use it, as thus far, the Kashan have been the only one to reverse-engineer it. Other factions could argueably reverse engineer the formula and apply it to their ships.

2) The elements that compose Ultrachrome are undefined thus far in canon. Thus, it is rather impossible to state whether or not it is expensive based on that alone. However, we do know that it was originally (in canon) was used for as hull armor for starships, which would seem to suggest that it was not overly expensive compared to other metals available millenia ago.

3) The argument that it is relatively ineffective in this era is somewhat mute, I believe. Durasteel is older in canon. Thus, by that argument, durasteel is also ineffective, meaning that a goodly portion of TNO's (and others) ships are poorly armored. Another argument that could be applied would be the technological plateau theory argued in previous years by the Staff.

4) Ultrachrome doesn't plate everything anymore within the Confederation. Some people might have noticed this, but the Confederation has stopped producing Pegasus-class Star Destroyers in favor of the canon Nebula-class Star Destroyer (which doesn't use Ultrachrome). As well, the Confederation recently bought out Creshaldyne Industries . And thus, instead of Ultrachrome plating, troops now generally wear the said company's Camou Scout Armor (another canon armor).

This doesn't mean that the Confederation has ceased use of Ultrachrome completely. Indeed, older units will continue to use it. But it does mean that it is not remotely as heavily used as it was in the past. It still has many useful properties, such as wiring or as a superconductor within Electromagnetic guns. Just something to keep in mind. Thanks.

Irtar Milagro

Posts: 2558

I came from my LAN this weekend just to say one thing:

ROUND 2! *ding ding!*

Simon Kaine

Posts: 1200

I have a feeling my In Character statements and speculation related to Ultrachrome may be the cause of this thread so let me check each statement as to it's correctness, authenticity and identify what is fact and speculation:

Taken from Kingdom Come:

The metal plate lay at the center of the table.

STATEMENT: Correct

From R&D regarding Ultrachrome:
the pride of the Seraph is it’s Ultrachrome armor plating

"What is it?"

"Ultrachrome. The fuckers plated their fucking ships and stormtroopers with the stuff."

STATEMENT: Correct

From R&D regarding Ultrachrome:
the pride of the Seraph is it’s Ultrachrome armor plating

From Kashan Shock Troop R&D regarding Ultrachrome:
22 Piece Ultrachrome..
The armour itself is made up of two layers: Ultrachrome...

Kaine frowned. "Seems excessive. They must spend a fortune mining and working the metal."

Statement: Speculation

The nature of Ultrachrome: could not be cut by a lightsaber was likened to that of Cortosis which, according to Wookeepedia, as an ore deactivates lightsaber blades and as an alloy blocks the blade. In Darth Bane: Path to Destruction, it is also used for starship armor and is a bitch to mine. Therefore, if one such material that is used as a defense against lightsabers is a bitch to mine, it is not out of the realm of possibility for another metal (see Ultrachrome) that has been used as a defense against lightsabers to also be a bitch to mine. Again, this is still IC speculation.

"Estimates say mining it accounts for more than half their economy. Especially given the composition and state of their fleet."

Statement: Speculation based on the use of Ultrachrome in the military units the Empire has seen IC so far and the relative size of their Confederation.

Kaine's eyes narrowed, "And these are the people that betrayed..?"

"The same fuckers. They dig up a thousand year old armor hoping it'd protect them."

Statement: Correct

Ultrachrome was a metal used as starship armor around the time of the Great Sith War.

Give or take a century... (I admit I did not see fit to find out exactly when the Great Sith War took place in SW history.)

"If memory serves, this protects from blaster fire?"

Statement: Correct
From Wookeepedia: ...it reflected blaster...

"It's conductive so I wouldn't necessarily say it protects. If there's no where for the energy to go, it will, at the very least, fry your testicles and make you infertile."

Statement: Speculation and an IC joke of contempt.

"Well, fortunately, we throw something a bit better than blasters."

Statement: Correct.

"There is more to go over.."

**

Simon smiled grimly as a holographic projection appeared above the table. The holograph was distorted.

Statement: Thought to be Correct.

The conductive element of this metal was demonstrated with the interference of this holographic projection.

"Will someone move that stupid piece of metal off the table?"

The plating was picked up and thrown to the side and the picture resolution sharpened.

Statement: Thought to be Correct.

When the interfering conductive metal was removed, the hologram returned to normal.

As for Corise's points:

1) Ultrachrome is a compound...

I don't think so.

According to Wookeepedia: Ultrachrome was a metal used as starship armor around the time of the Great Sith War. Silver and superconductive, it reflected blaster and slugthrower weaponry, could not be cut by a lightsaber, and was immune to metal-eating fungi.

Kar Vastor crafted his Akk Guard vibroshields out of ultrachrome.

According to Ultrachrome statement in R&D:
Each Ultrachrome plate is made by liquefying the metal with ion fusers and flash-freezing it by the vacuum of space or any number of cooling agents.

There is no mention of other metals in the process... I believe you may be confusing Ultrachrome with Cortosis which, as an alloy, is made up of various other elements and materials.

2). However, we do know that it was originally (in canon) was used for as hull armor for starships, which would seem to suggest that it was not overly expensive compared to other metals available millenia ago.

Interesting Point. But we also know in canon that Cortosis was used as starship armor (Darth Bane) during the war with the Sith and that it was also expensive and valuable to mine.

Darth Bane: Path to Destruction, Page 1: Impervious to both heat and energy, cortosis was prized in the construction of armor and shielding by both commercial and military interests, especiall with the galaxy at war. Highly resistant to blaster bolts, cortosis alloys supposedly could withstand even the blade of a lightsaber. Unfortunately, the very properties that made it so valuable also made it extremely difficult to mine.

The last statement made alot of sense to me. I would think that the properties that make Ultrachrome so valuable would also make it extremely difficult to mine. It is a common give/take with materials. You have taken an obscure canon material and made it readily available to your people which, according to the old rules is a no-no. Still, there was no problem with letting it slide. However, you didn't stop there. You also made this obscure material suddenly available in excessive quantities. It was shrugged off. Now, you are going to say that it's as easy to mine as durasteel?

You are correct in saying Wookeepedia doesn't say any which way about the mining of the stuff but I felt the little common sense I applied (at least I thought was common sense) was quite appropriate.

However, in theory I agree. It can swing both ways with regards to opinions as to the ease with which to mine.

3) The argument that it is relatively ineffective...

I believe it's been stated before that the thoughts of characters in roleplay do not always reflect truth, fact or perhaps even popular opinion. This is especially true of comments filled with derision or contempt.

4) Ultrachrome doesn't plate everything anymore within the Confederation.

I try very hard not to confuse IC knowledge with OOC knowledge. The two main instances where Confederation warships were in an engagement with TNO warships involve those ships that are plated with Ultrachrome.

Two such craft (by way of example):

Seraph: However, the pride of the Seraph is it’s Ultrachrome armor plating, which covers the entire ship.

Cavalier: Like the Seraph, the Cavalier’s chief asset is its Ultrachrome plating.

I am sure the Confederations newer IC decisions will reach TNO soon enough.

Beff Pike

Posts: 5711

all ur base r blong to us

Park Kraken

Posts: 4025

Give or take a century... (I admit I did not see fit to find out exactly when the Great Sith War took place in SW history.)

Heh, more like four millenia. 4,000 years BBY.

Simon Kaine

Posts: 1200

Corise Lucerne

Posts: 1865

Points 3 and 4 clear up a lot things, and I agree with what those statements say.

There is no mention of other metals in the process... I believe you may be confusing Ultrachrome with Cortosis which, as an alloy, is made up of various other elements and materials.

Wookiepedia puts it within the compound category if you look at the bottom or within the Compound category, which is what I were I was getting my statement from. That and it makes sense to me as a Materials Engineer. Which is why when I started RPing here, I RPed making the metal like that literally within my first RP. For example, I believe within "Since when is the Military for Diplomacy", it was explained the metals needed to make Ultrachrome were mined on Titan (Kashan's moon).

And in general, most metals people use in real-life simply aren't mined as ores and then shaped into whatever object you want.

For example, people generally don't mine steel.

Instead, it is primarily composed of iron with carbon along with a few other elements such as a manganese and tungsten depending on the exact gauge and type of steel. Of course, these elements must be processed together into the correct amounts to make the steel. Too much carbon, the steel is weak. Too much iron, and it's too brittle. The ways which it can be processed combined with the order of its processing, the possible impurities within the said elements, make it rather complex to make. Yet I doubt that here in North America and Europe we would be hardpressed to go to country where steel isn't abundantly used, despite the metal's rariety in nature.

Durasteel is similarly made, being composed of carvanium, lommite, meleenium, neutronium, and zersium (Wookiepedia). The new material now is "...capable of withstanding blistering heat, frigid cold, and monumental physical stress, even when very thin" (Wookiepedia). And this is an exceptionally common material.

You have taken an obscure canon material and made it readily available to your people which, according to the old rules is a no-no.

Yes, this is taken out of context, mainly because I think this part is important, and not for any reason for the debate on Ultrachrome. From what I've heard, the old rules are still in effect where the newer rules do not conflict. One could argue that this case falls under common sense (although our's disagree). But how exactly is a newer member like myself suppose to follow these rules when they're not listed anywhere? Or when another staff member, (in this case Titus), says that he does not have a problem with people finding a material that no-one else has used and exploiting it? It gets rather complicated when there's nothing for me to check and go on...

Interesting Point. But we also know in canon that Cortosis was used as starship armor (Darth Bane) during the war with the Sith and that it was also expensive and valuable to mine.

Darth Bane: Path to Destruction, Page 1: Impervious to both heat and energy, cortosis was prized in the construction of armor and shielding by both commercial and military interests, especiall with the galaxy at war. Highly resistant to blaster bolts, cortosis alloys supposedly could withstand even the blade of a lightsaber. Unfortunately, the very properties that made it so valuable also made it extremely difficult to mine.

I've seen references to its use on personal armor, never on starships (probably because it was brittle). But in any case, if we're basing the rariety or cost of a material based on its properties (which does make sense to an extent), we should take a look at dura-armor. Dura-armor is "an industrial-strength material that could absorb and re-direct blaster energy. Composed of neutronium, lommite and zersium molecules set in a certain matrix, dura-armor was used in the plating of combat droids and in the production of solid shielding (CUSWE)."

Notice a few things, notably that it has some of the properties of Ultrachrome, like absorbing and redirecting energy, but actually uses common elements (in fact, ones used to make durasteel). This is because of its matrix.

I have been suggesting that Ultrachrome derives its properties from it's structure, not from its elements.

Of course, I never intended for Ultrachrome to be the uber metal of doom which stops every attack made on it. It was always, and still is, intended to be a cultural flavoring which physically shows the differences between the previously isolated Kashan and the rest of the galaxy.

Simon Kaine

Posts: 1200

Well, I wasn't going to make a big deal about the mining costs of Ultrachrome or the process by which it is created since you are roleplaying it as an alloy instead of a metal ore. Such details, in my opinion, do not lend themselves to anything other than roleplaying curiosities and details. There is nothing wrong with having them but there is nothing wrong in not having them either.

I agree that there is not alot of information regarding Ultrachrome and so certain details can be made up to compensate. I agree with your statement regarding Durasteel as well.

It was my opinion, however, that Ultrachrome was held up as something a little better. Or a standard above typical durasteel (meaning if Cavalier A would meet a Kashan Cavalier, the Kashan Cavalier would have an armor advantage and, if all other things were equal, last a little longer in battle). There is nothing wrong with that but I would think that such a material would be a little more expensive as well, that's all.

So, if your entire fleet and your ground troops used the stuff there would be considerable expense (mining individual ores/properties and in the refining process). Since your entire fleet isn't using the stuff, then yes, such increased costs are offset but TNO people would not be in a position to know it in my opinion. Even if Imperial Intelligence was walking among planets in the Confederation, it takes time, it takes skill and just simply their presence doesn't mean TNO would know everything about everything about your people.

As for the reference to the old rule, I am not saying you cannot use Ultrachrome. As a staffer, I am ok with it. You have not broken a rule.

What I get uncomfortable with is the straining of credulity.

That old rule was put in place to remove the temptation of straining credulity for fleeting advantage. If some book came out with a super cloaking device powered by a crystal, we didn't want some member suddenly "discovering" a wealth of those crystals on the next continent of their homeworld powering a hundred cloaking ships. There are some elements in SW universe that seem location specific, like Bacta. We didn't want some new person thinking themselves a tactical genius by suddenly "discovering" bacta swamps on the third planet of their home system.

You were given the "ok" for Ultrachrome and I don't know how it was explained that only the Kashan seem to use it while the rest of the galaxy has forgotten it... whether Kashan just retained the knowledge after 4000 years of relative isolation or if they discovered old stone tablets with the formula... but I suppose once you were given the 'ok', the backstory may not have been important. But that the material was close at hand? ehh... ok. Fine. Put on just about every front line warship developed by Kashan?..ehh... ok. But when it seemed that you balked that it's development was any less expensive than something like Durasteel.. I was like.. "whoa, now he's going to find an alien species that not only believes Confederation is their Gods but in return for membership, they'll mine and process the bloody metal for free..."

How much more can credulity be stretched?

If your armor is not a step above, then, ok.. the cost wouldn't be that expensive. But if it is, then there is a cost increase and it seems one that your people (culturally) are more than willing to pay.

But that was just my opinion.

However, I should have just said that rather than reference an "old rule" because I can see that it is confusing and unfair to bring up. And for that, I apologize.

I've seen references to its use on personal armor, never on starships (probably because it was brittle).

Darth Bane, Page 15: "Cortosis was used in the hulls of everything from fighters to capital ships, as well being woven into the body armor of the troops."

This is where you have references of SW contradicting each other, I'd imagine. That is why Wookieepedia comments make a distinction between Cortosis Ore and Cortosis Alloy.

Corise Lucerne

Posts: 1865

*nods*

I think that clears up everything then. Yeah, it will cost more than standard durasteel I suppose in proportion to its effectiveness. Though I don't recall RPing to be that much better than regular armor.

Beff Pike

Posts: 5711

Better Sonar, you got it, we got it. Better stealth? You had it, we copied it. And so on.

Consider reality.

When a newer, better technology is developed - assuming the advantages of said technology out weigh the costs - it is generally the first ambition of other parties (nations, factions, tribes) to try and acquire that technology for themselves.

Here's where I get upset...

Members of TRF have continually attempted to dictate to others that their faction is the be all and end all in terms of technological advantage. That is not to say that they have all the best gear, but rather that they will attempt by any means to debunk anyone else who claims to have something better...

... rather than attempting to acquire and apply that technology themselves. In the old days this was far more common, and a much more effective way of combatting enemy advances. But, since BDE, it seems that the idea of stealing R&D tech and writing tales of the reverse engineering process has somehow become too much of a labor.

Just a thought.