Yeah, because a small ragtag resistance could never overthrow a massive, galaxy encompassing Empire. It is inconcievable to even think it...
...wait...
...wait...
Difficulties, Technical and Otherwise OOC
I disagree. But then, I would, wouldn't I? The point I was making is that the general populace does not generally know about the Empire's nastier methods of subjugating worlds. We are in that sense very capable with propaganda.
At the same time, the general populace does know the size and scope of the Imperial Army and Navy, and how ruthless they can be once hostilities have commenced. So by logical conclusion, resistance is futile.
I didn't mean to say that people know the Empire will come and grind them into dust, but rather that if war with the Empire broke out, the Empire would probably win.
Does that make any more sense, or am I rambling?
They could take over the Empire of the movies yes - but we are saying that we have changes things inside the Empire so that things are not very bad for the average Imperial citizen - he has free health care, a good job, protection, a freindly Civil Defense Corps if he ahs an emergency, and a plethora of worlds to travel between. Taxes are not very high, people are proud, and the oppression that was once there has been swept ubnder the rug - humans live next to Falleen and chat about the big game when they are out picking up their HOLONEWS disks from their driveways.
...Unless they're being violently conquered, like Contruum, I imagine they still nurse some wounds over that - a bit of suscpiscion, maybe, about the motives of the Empire...
...Or subject to a brutal takeover, like the devastated people of Thispias, I doubt they praise the ground the Emperor walks on, since Drayson made it such a point that the Imperial army wasn't there to distribute food and blankets so much as to just take the place...
...Or just plain blow to bits, like on Dubrillion, they're probably either too dead or too far (Say, as far as Rattatak in Coalition space) to make much use of free health care...
...Or starved to death, like Lorize, despite the supposed 'dancing in the streets', you'd think a population that was basically sieged into submission would hold at least a bit of resentment...
...Or forcibly taken at gunpoint in treaties then prompty forgotten, like (for example) Rodia, Ison, Varonat, and so forth. The Empire might own them, but generally such conquests leave at least a little discomfort, a bit of disagreement over the methodes employed...
...Or bloodily annexed like four planets in Hutt-space. Certainly, if they had the will to resist an Imperial decree and Imperial fleets, they wouldn't just forget the next day that the Empire wasn't always looking out for them...
I think you see my point. The Empire might want to appear and try to hammer home the image that it's a nice place full of shiny, happy people, but the fact of the matter is that Propaganda is never a perfect shield against reality - especially to outside observers, like the Verpine. You have committed bad things, and word of it is probably not just limited to world leaders - if your own citizens recieve propaganda news that's one thing, I imagine most of the rest of the galaxy is capable of knowing what's really going on. Considering your reputation, the only way you could reliably convince the Verpine to join you is through fear, and if the Verpine sign on to the Coalition then I don't think they'd have much to fear from you. Not to mention we outnumber you around Roche right now, that generally knocks out a leg from intimidation tactics.
...Or subject to a brutal takeover, like the devastated people of Thispias, I doubt they praise the ground the Emperor walks on, since Drayson made it such a point that the Imperial army wasn't there to distribute food and blankets so much as to just take the place...
...Or just plain blow to bits, like on Dubrillion, they're probably either too dead or too far (Say, as far as Rattatak in Coalition space) to make much use of free health care...
...Or starved to death, like Lorize, despite the supposed 'dancing in the streets', you'd think a population that was basically sieged into submission would hold at least a bit of resentment...
...Or forcibly taken at gunpoint in treaties then prompty forgotten, like (for example) Rodia, Ison, Varonat, and so forth. The Empire might own them, but generally such conquests leave at least a little discomfort, a bit of disagreement over the methodes employed...
...Or bloodily annexed like four planets in Hutt-space. Certainly, if they had the will to resist an Imperial decree and Imperial fleets, they wouldn't just forget the next day that the Empire wasn't always looking out for them...
I think you see my point. The Empire might want to appear and try to hammer home the image that it's a nice place full of shiny, happy people, but the fact of the matter is that Propaganda is never a perfect shield against reality - especially to outside observers, like the Verpine. You have committed bad things, and word of it is probably not just limited to world leaders - if your own citizens recieve propaganda news that's one thing, I imagine most of the rest of the galaxy is capable of knowing what's really going on. Considering your reputation, the only way you could reliably convince the Verpine to join you is through fear, and if the Verpine sign on to the Coalition then I don't think they'd have much to fear from you. Not to mention we outnumber you around Roche right now, that generally knocks out a leg from intimidation tactics.
Yes - these things happened - but you are not listening to waht I am saying. Once the world is taken - whether through siege or forced treaty, annexation, or conquest, then the good things start happen. Once the people take their oath of allegiance as Imperial citizens then they are treated as such. Food IS distributed, medics ARE dispatched, and the wounds ARE healed. They may nurse resentment for the way it was done but things change as soon as the doin is over.
In Hutt Space for example, destitute people are watching as s chool and hospitals are built, cities are restored to life, once corrupt police forces are replaced by loyal and professional Civil Defense Force officers. They ways of life are being improved and the difference is they now are being protected, cared for, and made safe.
They are of course dragged off if they propose democracy or threaten the Empire, and swiftlyu dealt with. But on a small scale, voting is leghal and in fact required - if they want the town square to be painted blue instead of red - it is their decision.
Siege warfare is a legal tactic - and any city that has troops in it is a legitimate military target - any space of military neccessity can be taken. That is war. What we are saying is that once hostilities are concluded we make things better for them. They may have animosity, but they soon realize that being Imperials isnt all that bad.
In Hutt Space for example, destitute people are watching as s chool and hospitals are built, cities are restored to life, once corrupt police forces are replaced by loyal and professional Civil Defense Force officers. They ways of life are being improved and the difference is they now are being protected, cared for, and made safe.
They are of course dragged off if they propose democracy or threaten the Empire, and swiftlyu dealt with. But on a small scale, voting is leghal and in fact required - if they want the town square to be painted blue instead of red - it is their decision.
Siege warfare is a legal tactic - and any city that has troops in it is a legitimate military target - any space of military neccessity can be taken. That is war. What we are saying is that once hostilities are concluded we make things better for them. They may have animosity, but they soon realize that being Imperials isnt all that bad.
One of the funny thing about people - especially alien people - is that sometimes they think differently from each other. Like, say, not everyone might think the right to choose what colour the town square is is enough. In particular, a free nation that is itself unconquered, moderately prosperous, independant, and currently UNDER ATTACK by the Empire (you did fire on them) might be interested in joining the Coalition quickly, considering the Coalition's preffered method of preserving the freedom of the states and the independance of the individual members, not to mention STOPPING THE EMPIRE'S ATTACK. I do believe that's the gist of my argument right there.
You are correct in that they would be bitter - I am not denying that. What I am saying is that once they ARE conquered, they fare better than other peoples. They do not decide major issues themselves as oft the people decide on what they want rather than what they need. For example - people drive SUVs. What if gas was rationed for the war, and it was put to a vote. People would say no because they want the gas for their SUVs and larger underused trucks and so that would be the end of the mat5ter - as a result, tanks run out of petrol and occupants of said tanks die after being set on by the very people from whom they were evading.
In The Empire - rationing is installed and there is no argument. Period.
A government might be moderately prosperous but the Empire offers a greater deal ofprosperity. Your own Alexander Hamilton countered an oft quoted phrase - "Those unwilling to sacrifice some freedoms for security are worthy of neither."
Democracy is not a sought after option in the Empire as, for the last fifty years in many cases and smaller year-numbers in recently annexed places, it is taught that the rule of the many creates disorder as a thousand voices clamor to a thousand different ends. They have been taught not to be mindless zombies - but that order is a lofty goal for all to strive. They have been taught that intelligence is secon to none and that the intelligent are only those worthy of true leadership. **Citizens are not zombies - they are counters to everything because absolute rulers can make mistakes - for the Emperor, the counter is the fleet. If he decides to kill every person on Coruscant for wearing blue, then he ahs erred and the Fleet/Army would step in and say no.
Let us take a real-world American example. Kerry v Bush. John Kerry - a man without imagination drive and dedication who bowed to whatever way the wind was blowing. He cared only about what he wanted to get elected and while in office would have done what the people told him - he would have listened to what they wanted and not what they needed.
Bush - also a sub-par human being but one with devotion. While he is a fanatical religious zealot, he has ideas and he sticks to them. Do I agree with him - certainly not, in fact I oppose him on many issues. But I can respect him for listening to what people say and saying I do not believe that. He at least has some personal values and ideals and stands by them - he does not yield.
The fundamental thing in the Empire is that the people need to worry about political matters are people above them are being trained and paid to do so for them. They can go on about their lives without being stressed to the limit of whether or not a war is just. They live and profit off of a bettered economy and go loyally when their number is called to join the ranks of the Imperial Army. They decide not if they should fight but serve their time and then enjoy the rewards if they live of being honoured Citizens.
BTW - In the Empire there is a difference - Citizens are those who have served and have indisputable loyalty to the Empire (not the Emperor, but to tis head whomever that may be). Civilians are the average person - does not take direct responsibility at any time for the well being of the State. Citizens are paid a stipend for their services and are permitted to wear their decorations on any clothing form they chooe - they have reserved seats at sporting events, et al. Careers guranateeing citizenship: soldiering, police, firefighters, Medics, governors, etc. Citizenship can be awarded if a person displays a heroic act (or something) that makes him worthy - ie saving the life of a person from a speeding hoverbus, or doing some groundbreaking research for the betterment of the Empire as a whole - or being a teacher recommended by her students as a loyal and kind person...etc
You get the idea.
***Comon quote - Franklin: Those willing to sacrifice freedom for security are unworthy of both.***
In The Empire - rationing is installed and there is no argument. Period.
A government might be moderately prosperous but the Empire offers a greater deal ofprosperity. Your own Alexander Hamilton countered an oft quoted phrase - "Those unwilling to sacrifice some freedoms for security are worthy of neither."
Democracy is not a sought after option in the Empire as, for the last fifty years in many cases and smaller year-numbers in recently annexed places, it is taught that the rule of the many creates disorder as a thousand voices clamor to a thousand different ends. They have been taught not to be mindless zombies - but that order is a lofty goal for all to strive. They have been taught that intelligence is secon to none and that the intelligent are only those worthy of true leadership. **Citizens are not zombies - they are counters to everything because absolute rulers can make mistakes - for the Emperor, the counter is the fleet. If he decides to kill every person on Coruscant for wearing blue, then he ahs erred and the Fleet/Army would step in and say no.
Let us take a real-world American example. Kerry v Bush. John Kerry - a man without imagination drive and dedication who bowed to whatever way the wind was blowing. He cared only about what he wanted to get elected and while in office would have done what the people told him - he would have listened to what they wanted and not what they needed.
Bush - also a sub-par human being but one with devotion. While he is a fanatical religious zealot, he has ideas and he sticks to them. Do I agree with him - certainly not, in fact I oppose him on many issues. But I can respect him for listening to what people say and saying I do not believe that. He at least has some personal values and ideals and stands by them - he does not yield.
The fundamental thing in the Empire is that the people need to worry about political matters are people above them are being trained and paid to do so for them. They can go on about their lives without being stressed to the limit of whether or not a war is just. They live and profit off of a bettered economy and go loyally when their number is called to join the ranks of the Imperial Army. They decide not if they should fight but serve their time and then enjoy the rewards if they live of being honoured Citizens.
BTW - In the Empire there is a difference - Citizens are those who have served and have indisputable loyalty to the Empire (not the Emperor, but to tis head whomever that may be). Civilians are the average person - does not take direct responsibility at any time for the well being of the State. Citizens are paid a stipend for their services and are permitted to wear their decorations on any clothing form they chooe - they have reserved seats at sporting events, et al. Careers guranateeing citizenship: soldiering, police, firefighters, Medics, governors, etc. Citizenship can be awarded if a person displays a heroic act (or something) that makes him worthy - ie saving the life of a person from a speeding hoverbus, or doing some groundbreaking research for the betterment of the Empire as a whole - or being a teacher recommended by her students as a loyal and kind person...etc
You get the idea.
***Comon quote - Franklin: Those willing to sacrifice freedom for security are unworthy of both.***
That's all well and good, but very few people clamour to be conquered next so they might partake in prosperity. The fact stands that in this current situation, the Empire is hardly in a place to make fancy-pants philosophical points and try and encourage their ideology in an effort to willingly win over support of the Verpine. You forcibly annexd them, threatened them, and fired on them - the only reason they'd possibly side with you now is fear, and they have no reason to fear now that a much larger Coalition fleet is here. In other words, the wind has been taken out of the sails of the Imperial forces since their usual enforcer tactics have failed, but it's far too late to try the diplomatic route now - well, you can try it, but it would take the craziest argument of all history ever to convince them that anything but fear of death is a good reason to join the Empire and not the Coalition. Thus, until such an argument of crazy proportions is made, I think it's safe to say the Verpine would think their lot best cast to the Coalition, if only to keep themselves from recieveing a greater pounding from impatient Imperial warlords.
You want to throw down quotes Telan? Fine, lets throw down quotes!
I think what Oscar Wilde was trying to get across was the diversity of man. There will never be entire socities who agree... there wasn't in Communist Russia and ther eisn't in Facist America. The concept of a complete society all agreeing on one thing is slim to none, and the chances of an entire society agreeing that occupation by a hostile force that has opened fire on them is nigh to fucking impossible.
Now, have some cocaine with the O-Dog.
I think what Oscar Wilde was trying to get across was the diversity of man. There will never be entire socities who agree... there wasn't in Communist Russia and ther eisn't in Facist America. The concept of a complete society all agreeing on one thing is slim to none, and the chances of an entire society agreeing that occupation by a hostile force that has opened fire on them is nigh to fucking impossible.
Now, have some cocaine with the O-Dog.
True - but as I said, once the firing is done they are no longer hostile. They have no need/reason to be. They should simply stop, accept it, nd go on with their bettered lives. They know that resisting will lead to bloodshed.
I am not involved in Roche - I cannot answer for Drayson
I am not involved in Roche - I cannot answer for Drayson