I have to agree, TNO does have flexibility and assurance other then mostly all the boards here as far as fleeting goes. Of course; I have been reading alot of TNO's roleplays as of last week to gain some educational knowledge about it and it seems to be as Gash put it "genius pieces of writing...".

I'm not sure how to feel about this post, so I'm just going to do my best to state my opinion.

Gash brings up many good points. However, these points can't seriously apply to everyone at the boards. Also, his post brings up a lot about the quality of writing and boards, but that too can't apply to everyone, because some people honestly can't tell their ass from their elbow when it comes time to make a board. When I first came to TRF, I made my own board, thought it looked good, and the first thing that happened was people went to the board and screamed "My eyes!" It took me some time to realize that it did indeed suck, and to understand more of what you can do to improve it (Thanks again gash for remaking the board at the time.)

Also, who is to judge what's good writing, or a valid reason? Almost every takeover and thread I've been involved in seemed great at the time. But later on, you start to see discrepincies, and if you read the same thread a year later you'd admit it sucked. And some people just can't plain write very good. Now that might not seem nice, but it's true.

However, I definetly see where you're coming from, which is asking for a greater effort towards quality. This part I straight out approve of, because everyone should be striving to write better.

Now as to the problem with expansionism, and war for possessions, I definetly feel that right now. The Galactic Coalition surrendered to the Empire, and what did they want? Planets and ships. Gue asks me to review the attack on Dameo, so I do so and decide he's right and I should pull out, but hold on because he wants ships and stuff too. ORS has surrendered at so many worlds I may have set a record, but when I give up they're certainly going to still want more damn planets and ships.

So I definetly see what you're talking about when it comes to TNO. You baited us into the war (With Venerations, during which you even said "When did we say the war was over?" or something like that) and then used it to suck out resources. And you can say all you want about "Great Plots" and the like, and I'll believe you, but the big picture of the war still seemed like one big manipulation to get your hands on fistfuls of planets and ships.

That's not to say we're much better. When I start a takeover it's not because I came up with a great plot idea, it's because I decided we could use another planet. And I fight fleet battles with victory (or at the least, survival) in mind, even when the characters would be unlikely to act as they may need to to secure my objectives. But don't sit on a high horse and say you guys are free of expansion for the sake of having more ships and planets to use in the aquisition of more. Because you're not.

Just want to say, thanks for the mention.

Gash brings up many good points. However, these points can't seriously apply to everyone at the boards. Also, his post brings up a lot about the quality of writing and boards, but that too can't apply to everyone, because some people honestly can't tell their ass from their elbow when it comes time to make a board. When I first came to TRF, I made my own board, thought it looked good, and the first thing that happened was people went to the board and screamed "My eyes!" It took me some time to realize that it did indeed suck, and to understand more of what you can do to improve it (Thanks again gash for remaking the board at the time.)

It's just simple color coordination, or simple copy-paste from a site like, say, ezDesign. I suppose we should put some links to board design help sites in the rules or FAQ..

Also, who is to judge what's good writing, or a valid reason? Almost every takeover and thread I've been involved in seemed great at the time. But later on, you start to see discrepincies, and if you read the same thread a year later you'd admit it sucked. And some people just can't plain write very good. Now that might not seem nice, but it's true.

You're right, in a sense. Not everyone can write brilliantly. However, everyone has the potential to write nominally well. Everyone is capable of turning out something that has proper grammar, proper punctuation, and a decently engaging plotline. Where you go beyond that point is all up to the person, and their level of determination.

Gash, as I read it, isn't saying 'Everyone write the next Lord of the Rings'. He's saying 'Everyone try put a bit of thought into your writing.'

This is writing for writing's sake. The whole ship building thing is supposed to be a side-effect of your writing, not the central purpose. Sure, it's fun to build ships and plot attacks, and build your own custom ships and junk, but that's not the point, and it shouldn't be the point. If that was the point of TRF, a web-based system would have to be constructed to govern the fleeting and battle process, and our writing would turn into clicking a button and letting the computer calculate out how much damage you did.

However, I definetly see where you're coming from, which is asking for a greater effort towards quality. This part I straight out approve of, because everyone should be striving to write better.

Yes. The object here should be to better your writing techniques. Tell me, Dolash, how many people in your class can write like you do? When you first came here you could write nominally, but now you can write quite well, with a Pratchett-Adams style. I can only imagine how far you'll go as you continue to grow older, and get better.

So I definetly see what you're talking about when it comes to TNO. You baited us into the war (With Venerations, during which you even said "When did we say the war was over?" or something like that) and then used it to suck out resources. And you can say all you want about "Great Plots" and the like, and I'll believe you, but the big picture of the war still seemed like one big manipulation to get your hands on fistfuls of planets and ships. ... [snip] ... But don't sit on a high horse and say you guys are free of expansion for the sake of having more ships and planets to use in the aquisition of more. Because you're not.

'Baiting' you into attacking, then striking back, sucking out your resources and defeating you is a plotline. Getting planets is a side-effect. TNO would attack you even if you didn't have fleets or planets to 'take', because they have reason to. Writing a good story is the goal here, and on a board dedicated to Empire building, writing a good story about one-upping the enemy commanders is even more rewarding.

If I were to attack someone right now, today, it wouldn't be for the planets. I have no desire to make my group any bigger, I like it how it is. I would be attacking because I would have a reason -- a plotline set out that I want to follow, a result I want to get to.

The object shouldn't be to make your group bigger, it should be to write a story that is not only interesting to read, but enjoyable to write as well. Getting a large group, more ships, etc, should be a perk to having written your stuff, not the reason.

I've said this before on Star Wars Tales, and I will say it here as well:

Remember, everyone has the potential to be a good writer. Take the time to proofread your posts before you post them. Help out other writers with proofreading and spell-checking: be editors for each other. We are all here to create stories that are worth reading over and over again.

So take some pride in what you write. A post that makes no sense, that is full of spelling errors and gross grammatical errors becomes a chore for our readers to face.

The stories that we create here are created in order to have fun, but it is also considered a sincere creative writing effort in which your contribution will help carry the story along and not hinder it.

Don't post just because you have nothing better to do...

You obviously arn't looking then.

Yes Gue, that would be the gist of what I posted, and also why I said, "I don't think I've read anything by you in months". You seem to think that this is all about you, which it isn't.

No, you posted addressing the entire board, so expect individual replies on the topic. So don't get all ancy at those replies.

Dolash, your entire post was the most ridiculous piece of self-indulgent apologist nonsense I've ever seen you write. What are you talking about? You launch a massive attack on TNO, go on for weeks about how you're going to bring us down and destroy us, and somehow it was all a power-play by us? What? Where do you come up with this @#%$?

You, Jan, Griff and Marth were basically bragging for weeks on end about how you were going to destroy us and wipe TNO out. As I see it, you were pretty gung-ho about the war until it stopped going your way. I mean, how the @#%$ was it a manipulation? Did I come to your house and make you attack, or write out a one-page manifesto about how TNO really doesn't seem all that nice and post it with Griff's account? Did I force you to drop virtually your entire fleet into the Corellia system? No, I didn't think so. So I'll thank you for not making random accusations to excuse your own ineptitude, particularly when your side is the only side that hacked a board in their unflinching quest to win.

Your side -- yes, your groups, GC and ORS, no matter what bullshit excuses you come up with to somehow excuse your actions onto other people -- attacked us. You went after our newest member (never Omnae or I) and destroyed a bunch of his ships. You took planets. So yeah, when you decided to give up, we wanted planets and ships. First and foremost as compensation, second and more importantly because a victory isn't a victory unless you win something.

As I recall -- and I'll thank all of you for very carefully rewriting my post by putting all of your bullshit preconceptions in my mouth -- I said that expansion can still serve as a motivator for roleplay. In fact, if you actually read my post instead of scanning the first six lines, putting your head down and firing off a detailed retort, I wrote, "but thoughtful writing and fleeting can coexist". Of the people in this conversation, whose round of attacks was preceeded by a four thousand word RP? Oh. Right. I thought so.

I never thought I would see such a shameful display on a roleplaying board. I encourage everyone to write more thoughtfully and you all bite back like I'm asking you to have sex with a dead animal. Jesus Christ.

So don't get all ancy at those replies.

Why not? You seem to get pretty "ancy" when suddenly you feel like poor Gue is being targetted for a personal attack. Suddenly it's time to let the accusations fly when all I am asking is that instead of writing 5000 words of bullshit, you sit down and think and maybe -- though I understand this may be a bizarre concept -- take ten minutes to plan out something worthwhile. Instead it's a bunch of whining about how you don't have enough planets to write well.

Take a look at the "Sins of the Fathers" - it was a merger roleplay, with a requirement of 7000 words. The thread, at its end point, was (if I remember correctly) somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30 000 words.

Now, granted TNO did get a number of planets out of the roleplay - but that wasn't just a matter of counting our words and saying "Oh, let's choose these planets". The thread is without a doubt one of the most incredible displays of writing skill and plot that I've ever seen on TRF - I would say it ranks with Endgame and Conquest (which brings me to my next point).

Endgame was, in effect, the takeover of one world - Coruscant. And it is, again, one of the most powerful and riveting roleplays in TRF's history. The requirement for taking a planet is only 500 words - Endgame was (I think) near 40 000. And it would have been an incredibly simple matter at the time for TNO to simply throw ships at TNR and take the planet. Instead, they played GDI, TNR, and TJE off each other and at the end of it all, they held Coruscant. And, as Gash said at the time, they deserved it. Because Endgame was such a brilliant roleplay.

Conquest (which just so recently ended after something like 2.5 years) is just another example. Conquest was not about taking planets, it was about roleplaying. Yes, VC and TCR were supposed to get planets out of the deal, and they lost them at the time of the fleet reset, but that was not the point of the threads.

Those 800 000 words were not written to get planets, they were written for the sake of writing. No simple planet grab would have succeeded for that long, and I'm sure many long-term ones would have been abandoned after the fleet reset.

But Conquest continuned because it was an enjoyment for its participants. And I am very proud to have played a part, albiet a small one, in that work.

Theren and Kas are exactly right in saying that TRF is not about expansion, it is about writing. Planets and ships are mearly a side effect of this.

TNO does have a lot of planets, but as Theren pointed out, they deserve them. Reqiuem, History Teacher, Kings and Pawns, Maginot Lines, Sins of the Fathers - these are all brilliant roleplays (and many of them surprass the required words to take planets).

When I read my RPs from TGC, I cringe at how terrible they were. I credit a lot of my increased skills in writing to TRF. Dolash has improved dramatically since his arrival, as has every person who has ever played at TRF.

Writing 5000 words to take a planet may be fine and dandy. But if you can write 5000 words and come away from it thinking "Damn, this is good writing." and be proud of yourself for it, then that's awesome.