Wes Vos

I'll take this to task first. Your information is based off of a website that, at least at first glance (as I have little time tonight, so a first glance is all it can get) seems to be biased heavily in your direction. Deathpenaltyinfo.org is, on face, and anti-death-penalty site. Now, that doesn't make the information they present wrong, it does call into question whether the information is being presented in its entirety.

Obviously there's bias, just as I'm sure you can find a pro-Capital Punishment website that will give lots of information that it is great. The thing is, we're talking about killing people. If there's doubt as to whether it's fair and effective, the default position should be to preserve life, not to kill the offender.

Well, that depends on your outlook on life. It is my firm opinion that a murderer deserves to die.

And I'm sure many people agree with that view. The catch is, no individual has the right to make that call. And while you can claim that the Government executes people, there's still a human being somewhere along the chain that makes the call and sentences the defendant to death. No Judge has the right to be making that call. No group of people has the right to make that call.

For history, every ancient legal code had the death penalty to one degree or another. It is only as history has progressed, and as mankind has become worse, that certain individuals have raised an outcry against it.

Now this is an interesting argument. Not because it has any real validity, but because it's ridiculous. It was done in ancient times, so it should be done today? People were killed for stealing in ancient times, that does not make it OK. African Americans were used as farm implements. Was that OK? Woman were denied education, jobs, and the right to vote. Was that OK?

I'm amused that you think mankind has gotten worse since those days. I'm sure your story would quickly change if you were forced to live in the conditions of the ancient world, with the daily threat of being killed by the sword, the plague, or, if you survived both of those, at the ripe old age of 40. The world really is a terrible place...

First, you stated that we as human beings have no place to be the executioners. I couldn't agree with you more. As you know, I'm a Christian, and as such I follow the teachings of Jesus. Even he condemned those who would take mob action to stone a woman (the story is in John, if you want to read it). However, I do believe that, while individuals are not permitted to kill, it is the responsibility of the government to promote the safety, welfare, and good of their charge, namely the country which is placed into their hands (in my belief, by God). As such, it is the responsibility of government to determine just sentance and to execute it.

So basically what you're saying is that the Bible does not condone capital punishment, but you support it anyway. So even when Jesus says "Do not take revenge", you respond with "I follow your teachings... except for that one. And that one. And this one." You cannot separate government and individual so cleanly because it is the individual that sentences the offender. The judge does the sentencing, not some clean cut "government".

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people". Sound familiar? That's one of the building blocks of the United States. But if governments are made up of people, for the people, and if people are supposed to turn the other cheek, then what is the government supposed to do?

Your second argument was about innocent persons who were executed. I agree, such a thing is a travesty. However, that does not mitigate the responsibility that government has to execute punishment. Yes, some innocent people might be caught in the process and executed. However, that is what the appeals process is for. In case you didn't know, any death penalty case is cause for an automatic appeal on the part of the defendant. Everything possible is done to keep such things from happening.

And this is why Capital Punishment is absolutely useless as a punishment and as a deterrent. From conviction to death, how many years pass? Is anyone really afraid of the death penalty? The chances of being sentenced to death, and then actually executed, are infinitesimally small. 2%, in fact, once you're on Death Row. Which is safer than being in a gang in some cases.

Even in the supposedly "better" ancient times, when they would kill a person for looking at you the wrong way, crime existed. So if the Death Penalty is ineffective, what point does it serve?

Another answer to that argument is found in the logical idea that the death penalty does prevent that one person from committing such acts in the future.

So does keeping them behind bars. And this does it without the need to tie up the courts with lengthy automatic appeals, without the risk of killing innocent people, and without entering into the murky waters of "is it right to kill another human being?" The only thing it does not do is satisfy the innate blood lust of those who take pleasure in seeing a murderer die.

But we, as humans, are not supposed to take pleasure in watching a murderer die. Jesus tells us that individuals should forgive, and the government should execute the criminal (as per Wes, anyway). But if the government gets no benefit from these executions, since crime rates do not go down, and the individual gets no benefit, since we are supposed to turn the other cheek, why exactly are we executing these people?

Actually, my arguments are based in logic... You say my arguments are ruled by passion - hardly.

I still say they are rooted in passion. Your logic is flawed, since incarceration serves your stated goals equally well, without the downsides of execution, and with the potential to rehabilitate people and allow them to be useful members of society. So incarceration is actually a more logical punishment. Capital Punishment does not deter crime, so the logic behind it is sketchy, at best. That means you have to look beyond the logic to find support for your argument, which leads me to taking pleasure in seeing a bad person die. But Jesus teaches us not to take pleasure in this and not to judge people.

Where does the Bible distinguish between the invidivual and the Government? The passage you provide talks more about paying your taxes, paying your debts, and honoring the laws of the land. I don't see in that description where God says, I endorse the death penalty. The passage is basically saying to obey the law. And how can it make sense for one minute, that throughout the Bible God is stressing forgiveness not only to your enemies but ESPECIALLY to your enemies, Jesus himself comes to the aid of someone who is about to be given the death penalty and prevents it from happening.

In John 8 it clearly says Jesus entered the "temple courts", this isn't some backyard barbecue with random people trying to execute someone. He issues them all the same command, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." So you're telling me that, in a different situation, let's say a member of the Government were going to give someone death by lethal injection, you don't think Jesus would address them the same way? You think he'd tell them, OK you're a member of the Government go ahead and put this person to death?

It just doesn't make sense that you would judge a Government differently than you would judge an individual. How can you grant a Government a different moral code than an individual? Also, this passage says "The authorities that exist have been established by God." So what Government does this apply to? Every Government on the planet? Even the most corrupt Governments that engage in genocide? How do we decide who it applies to?

If anything, this passage is telling you to agree with the laws set forth by your Government. I don't see anywhere where it says that you need to be an advocate for the death penalty. And if you follow the other million examples in the New Testament, they preach forgiveness profusely. Several times they bring up the example to forgive your ENEMY.

Sorry, I can't help but get a kick out of something there.

If God endorsed Roman Government, then that means God endorsed the execution of Christians in favour of the Roman Gods. I guess I know who God was rooting for then...

Jupiter 1 Christians 0

Park Kraken

I would like to ask, was this statement your personal opinion, or a fact printed somewhere in a website/article? Because the way I understand, executions take place because criminals are deemed too dangerous for their continued existance even among a restricted society like prison.

Executions take place so someone can feel good about taking vengeance. Offenders who cannot interact with the rest of the population are kept in solitary confinement - read up on Supermax prisons, which is where such individuals are held.

The fact is that people escape from prison all the time. An execution ensures that this won't happen. It forever removes from society the chance that that person will kill again.

While you're reading up on Supermax, see if you can find a record of an escape from such a jail. While Supermax presents its own set of problems, it should be obvious to even the most casual observer that killing someone because you cannot keep them contained is a poor justification. Build better prisons, don't simply kill those who might escape.

The fact is that of the hundreds of thousands of prisoners in the US prison system, very few escape every year.

Demosthenes X

Executions take place so someone can feel good about taking vengeance. Offenders who cannot interact with the rest of the population are kept in solitary confinement - read up on Supermax prisons, which is where such individuals are held.

While you're reading up on Supermax, see if you can find a record of an escape from such a jail. While Supermax presents its own set of problems, it should be obvious to even the most casual observer that killing someone because you cannot keep them contained is a poor justification. Build better prisons, don't simply kill those who might escape.

The fact is that of the hundreds of thousands of prisoners in the US prison system, very few escape every year.

Well, I know of at least one. Guy named Eddie Hyler, escaped in 1988. Was out for 5 years. The reason I know about him is because my dad testified at his trial, and when Eddie got out we had to have 24-hour protection.

And we weren't the only people on his list.

The thing is, he came very close a few times to following through on his threats. Had he been executed, that threat would not have existed. We wouldn't have had to have police protection. There would have been no opportunity to make threats on our lives, or on the lives of those we knew.

Just delete

Fuck you, Park.

I should never had brought this up in the first place.

So far, it's been a good debate.

If you children insist on degrading yourselves and this thread to the point of flaming I will not only close the thread, but hand out a week ban.

Be-fucking-have.

Whatever.