Free speach doesnt include not being laughed at.

I wrote out three replies to Dolash, but none of them seemed to get the point across well enough. So I'll just say, Dolash, are you positive God doesn't mind?

Yeah. I mean, if he does, then he's a stickler, and frankly if God does exist then I wouldn't worship him on the grounds of him being a jerk, from my point of view. Even if he did create the universe, he still just seems like a jerk, and I don't worship jerks. So if he does mind, pooh on him with nobs on.

So you don't mind if everyone swore by you, from now on? Dolash Damn this forum, it's slow today. Dolash f* 02, your post isn't even closet to being legal Drayson... Etc.

Wouldn't want to be a stickler, right?

Dolash, first off, God is beyond your anthropomorphic views. God cannot be a "Jerk". God is God!

Secondly, Im swearing by your name from now on... OH MY DOLASH!

If people swore by me, I'd find that so cool.

And anyone who thinks certain sentient beings, even an all-powerful one, is beyond moral judgement, is setting a dangerous precendent for themselves. God is not automatically right. I refuse to believe anything is automatically right.

Swearing by God's name is ok, on one condition. It is not done in vane (eg: frivolously). When you swear by God, you're basically saying that yes, I will not break this oath, and may God take me if I do. Not fufilling an oath set before God is a serious thing, thus the reason to not use God's name in vane.


Could you explain yourself a little more, concerning your views about God in general? I'm curious as to why you call him a jerk. You've probably said it before, forgive me if you have, but I don't remember why.

Well, he killed a lot of people based on moral evaluations. The great flood thing, for example. He ordered that guy to sacrifice his son just to see if he would do it (which would be considered sick and twisted by mortal standards). He made the earth and stuck us on it and because some distant ancestors apparently did some stuff he has to take it out on us.

Now, I don't believe in him for personal reasons, but if he did exist, I would not worship him and spend most of my time trying to find how to scientifically copy gods' genetic makeup (assuming he's organic, since we were apparently made in his image) and copy his powers to create an alternate divine fate for humans where death does not result in some arbitrary judgement based on oft silly laws.

Well, he killed a lot of people based on moral evaluations.

Er, you don't believe in moral's?

The great flood thing, for example.

Ah, yes. The Flood. 12 And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. 13 And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Here's the scenario. God creates the world. It's a perfect paradise, everyone lives in peace. There is no death, no fighting, everything is hunky-dory. There's a lot of love and procreation going on as well. Everyone is happy.

Then this here poopie-head named Lucifer decides he wants to be God. So he makes his bid for the seat of power, and he gets his rear handed to him by an archangel named Michael. With his rear sore from Michael's shoe, and his head black and blue from the impact with earth, Satan decides to mess up God's perfect world.

He tempts Eve, who is dumb enough to succumb. World ruined, Man removed from perfect garden, world goes down the tubes faster than pee down a five gallon flush.

God decides, forget this, let's start over. Man is out doing his thing, and he's forgotten what his grandparents told him. Noah, look dude, you're the only one left. So build a boat and let's wipe the slate clean for the human race, and try again.

Man sins, Man stops listening to his Creator, Man plays his own game, Man gets owned by God and a heck of a lot of water. Simple. Just.

He ordered that guy to sacrifice his son just to see if he would do it (which would be considered sick and twisted by mortal standards).

This one needs a little backstory. We can start with the Flood. God saw that Man was messing things up on his own, so he wiped the board clean and started again. Except, walla, Man starts messing up yet again. This time God decides to go a different rout. He says, I'm going to get a guy I can trust to do what I say, and make him and his family my special people. If they follow me, I'll bless their socks off.

So he finds this Abram dude, and tells him to pack up and leave home, a home in which he and his family were quite influential. Abram does what God says, and goes. Things happen, and after many years God tells Abram that he will be the father of a heck of a lot of people. He says, I'll give you a son.

Years go by, and no son appears. So Sarah, Abram's (now Abraham, though I'm fuzzy on exactly when the change took place, and I'm too lazy to look it up) wife says, Yo husband mine, take my servant girl, have sex with her, and we'll adopt the child.

Abraham succumbs to his wife's will, and Ishmael is born. A little later Isaac is born to Sarah, and the troubles begin. (This, by the way, is the root of all the problems in the middle east today. If only Abraham had listened to God, a lot of trouble could have been avoided over the years).

God looks down, and sees Man messing things up again! Gosh, these people never learn. So he decides that a test is needed. He wants a people of his own, a group of people that he can nuture, love, and bless, but he wants to be dead sure that he has the right guy to father the nation. Remember the Flood? Yeah, he didn't particularly want another one of those.

So he devises a test for Abraham. A test to see if he is truly willing to follow his instructions. Yes, the test is harsh, but God wants to make sure he's got the right man for the job. It's a tough job, and the requirements are as equally tough.

Abraham passes the test in spades. God says, Yah! About time we found the right man. Heaven has a boogie party.

Sadistic? Maybe, by the standards of today's Man. But considering what was at stake, it makes perfectly logical sense. Man messes up yet again, so God decides to isolate a group of people and make them his own. He wants the right guy to start the nation, so he tests the man he's had in mind.

He made the earth and stuck us on it and because some distant ancestors apparently did some stuff he has to take it out on us.

... uh, huh? He's taking it out on us? Please clarify this, so I don't explain something you weren't questioning. :)

Now, I don't believe in him for personal reasons, but if he did exist, I would not worship him and spend most of my time trying to find how to scientifically copy gods' genetic makeup (assuming he's organic, since we were apparently made in his image) and copy his powers to create an alternate divine fate for humans where death does not result in some arbitrary judgement based on oft silly laws.

Well, good luck getting a blood sample for your clone armies.

1. I believe in morals, I DON'T believe in killing people because they don't measure up to my particular code. I DO believe in defending myself and others if that person's activities will cause harm to me or others, but besides that you really shouldn't hurt people just because they "Think" evil, or whatever.

2. No, not just. God killed people because they weren't perfect. If God's perfect, why can't he make perfect people? Now he could have come down in person and done some work to "bring them back to rightiousness" (However, we're only hearing one side of the story here about them being unrightious, I'd much rather have been able to see what was so bad about these people that someone felt it was justified to kill them all) but no, it'd be easier to kill loads of people and start over.

3. If God is all knowing and everywhere, why didn't he just know wether the guy was good enough? And why didn't he stay in more direct contact? If this guy was so important he should have been chatting to him daily. Also, how is this guy just if he has sex with servants? Girls, at that? A bad sign for the future, that is, and God didn't notice?

And it is definetly sadistic, because apparently the ends justify the means. Now, sometimes they do, if you have no other choice, but they DO NOT justify it when only you have to choose wether to choose or not. In other words, God didn't HAVE to test Abraham in the way he did, but because he CHOSE to, any moral implications of the act fall on him.

3. If he's master of the universe he sure is taking out some sort of wroth on us. I never went to Eden or ate any fancy apples, but I'm sure not in there now, am I? No, apparently, an ancestor ate the apples and so I'm punished too. And to go back to the floods? How did he know EVERYONE was corrupted? What about babies? Babies born recently, they wouldn't have had time to become evil yet. Or small children? It seems to me to be another incident of group punishment. I don't think God can easily differentiate between humanity in general and individual humans, he seems to preffer acting with a group at a time.

And if he exists he's definetly got some issues. He creates a painfully flawed race where our natural instincts don't even INCLUDE good (Good is something we have to make up as we go along) then says if we don't follow his moral guidlines (Some of which seem less moral and more vain. Why does worshipping God assure we're good people? I think maybe he just likes to be worshipped) then we're going to burn forever. Not to mention all the plagues and disease floating around. If he were nice he would have made us without great ambition and anger and other weaknesses and put us in Eden and not left that stupid tree hanging around.

5. You don't really need a blood sample, if he existed. You'd just need a sample of what he does. What is this divine energy he uses made of? Is it a compound or a pure substance? Perhaps an undiscovered element? If we could synthesize it and give it to someone trustworthy, s/he could use them to create an alternate divine system, one that functions without difficult moral guidlines or ultimate justice. Baisically break up the monopoly on these human souls God seems to have. And if the person screwed up or was really evil, we could give it to someone else to stop the first person.

And if God didn't like it well bleh, he of all people should know the value of sharing.