Wow. I never thought of it like that before. He has a point though.
I always wondered why Star Trek seems to have a good background and technology (and Force-esque "magic" on the part of aliens) to play with, yet is absolutely no fun to RP. Star Wars is similar in terms of technology, etc but has a much simpler arrangement of galactic politics (Well, in the original films: "Good rebellion vs Evil Empire") but offers much more scope for RP!
It must be because people who like Star Trek don't hate it...
I guess with Star Wars, we're all trying, in our writing, to make it how it should have been.
Why I Hate Star Wars
I disagree with that 100%, I was watching ANH the other day and I'm amazed at how good it STILL is. I think people RP because they enjoy writing and they enjoy the SW Universe for all that it is. There's so much to explore, if you want to be a Jedi you can be a Jedi, evil? Be a Sith. You want to command large fleets or run intergalactic corporations? You can do it in Star Wars.
It amazes me how much shit people talk about George Lucas, yet are self-proclaimed Star Wars fans. How does that even make sense? The man created the Galaxy you're saying you love, yet you despise him for it? Were there mistakes, especially in the prequels? I think everyone found things they disliked about then, such as Jar Jar or Hayden's acting, whatever the case may be. But personally, watching Yoda kick some ass was amazing.
I think people should stop focusing so much on what they hate, and focus on what they enjoy. If you hate George Lucas so much, why would you spend so much time thinking about something that he created?
3 of the top ten grossing movies OF ALL TIME are SW movies (2 of them prequels by the way, ep. 1 and 3), and all 6 are within the top 30 movies of all time. Think about what a monumental achievement that is, 30 years after ANH came out and people are still dressing up as Stormtroopers attending comic conventions, buying novels focusing on the most miniscule characters in the cantina scene, and writing on forums such as this fiction that never really happened in that universe, but we wish it did.
It amazes me how much shit people talk about George Lucas, yet are self-proclaimed Star Wars fans. How does that even make sense? The man created the Galaxy you're saying you love, yet you despise him for it? Were there mistakes, especially in the prequels? I think everyone found things they disliked about then, such as Jar Jar or Hayden's acting, whatever the case may be. But personally, watching Yoda kick some ass was amazing.
I think people should stop focusing so much on what they hate, and focus on what they enjoy. If you hate George Lucas so much, why would you spend so much time thinking about something that he created?
3 of the top ten grossing movies OF ALL TIME are SW movies (2 of them prequels by the way, ep. 1 and 3), and all 6 are within the top 30 movies of all time. Think about what a monumental achievement that is, 30 years after ANH came out and people are still dressing up as Stormtroopers attending comic conventions, buying novels focusing on the most miniscule characters in the cantina scene, and writing on forums such as this fiction that never really happened in that universe, but we wish it did.
<- What you said.
<- What I said. A statement that you disagree with 100%.
Surely those two statements are equivalent? I'm saying that "we" (or I at least) write things that we think should have been the case. You're saying we write what we wish was the case.
Isn't that the same thing?
In fairness, I don't "hate" the Star Wars films. I can't imagine that person who wrote the article does either: I think that's just rhetoric. His point (as I read it) is that there are so many irritating niggles with the story! Niggles that don't stop the films being good to watch (or indeed, making money!) but niggles which grate with fans.
Those fans (i.e. us) then try to extend Lucas' creation into something better. Into something WITHOUT those niggles:
I cite:
* Wes having his SS use hovertanks and not the standard issue AT-ATs.
* Writers like Simon and Telan introducing Imperial characters who genuinely believe (and do a damn good job of convincing other people) that the Empire isn't just evil. Indeed, it can be efficient, honourable and its citizens can be safe and happy.
* Sith who are more than just 2D "evil" characters (Dooku, Maul, etc). Obviously, Anakin/Vader is an exception since he's so key to the films' story.
* Battles where just "being the good guy" is not enough. The Empire can (and do) win battles that (in the films) they would lose. I mean, can you imagine me writing as a group of Ewoks defeating a Legion of Telan's Guard? The common sense rule would be cited and I would be told "No." in no uncertain terms!
Anyway :-) That's just my justification.
<- What I said. A statement that you disagree with 100%.
Surely those two statements are equivalent? I'm saying that "we" (or I at least) write things that we think should have been the case. You're saying we write what we wish was the case.
Isn't that the same thing?
In fairness, I don't "hate" the Star Wars films. I can't imagine that person who wrote the article does either: I think that's just rhetoric. His point (as I read it) is that there are so many irritating niggles with the story! Niggles that don't stop the films being good to watch (or indeed, making money!) but niggles which grate with fans.
Those fans (i.e. us) then try to extend Lucas' creation into something better. Into something WITHOUT those niggles:
I cite:
* Wes having his SS use hovertanks and not the standard issue AT-ATs.
* Writers like Simon and Telan introducing Imperial characters who genuinely believe (and do a damn good job of convincing other people) that the Empire isn't just evil. Indeed, it can be efficient, honourable and its citizens can be safe and happy.
* Sith who are more than just 2D "evil" characters (Dooku, Maul, etc). Obviously, Anakin/Vader is an exception since he's so key to the films' story.
* Battles where just "being the good guy" is not enough. The Empire can (and do) win battles that (in the films) they would lose. I mean, can you imagine me writing as a group of Ewoks defeating a Legion of Telan's Guard? The common sense rule would be cited and I would be told "No." in no uncertain terms!
Anyway :-) That's just my justification.
Because you won't fucking reply to Zell Re; Rendili
It drives him to anger, which in turn drives me...
Get your ass in gear.
Respectfully, I would disagree with some of what you said Ithron. I don't think that our two statements are the same. Me saying that we wish our stories could be including in the epic Star Wars universe is not me saying so because I believe I could make it better. Though many here I'm sure think they could make the series better, that's an entirely different discussion though.
But come on, comparing Wes' hover tanks to AT-ATs? Are you serious? Nothing against Wes, I consider him a good friend and I think he's done a lot for TRF. But that scene on Hoth with the AT-ATs was friggin' amazing. We have tanks in our world, we don't have four-legged behemoths that look like mechanical beasts though, unfortunately.
As for the Imperial aspect, you are somewhat correct in that the Imperials presented weren't depicted as good guys with good ideals. But they weren't supposed to be, why? Because they WERE the bad guys. You're not supposed to think Grand Moff Tarkin's a good guy when he blows up Alderaan right in front of Princess Leia.
As for the bad guys, you bring up a few examples namely Maul and Dooku. Maul, for one was supposed to be mysterious. That was the whole point of Darth Maul. Everything about him is mysterious which just makes him that much cooler when he shows up on the screen with this double-bladed lightsaber that we've never seen before. As for Dooku, he really only played a minor part in my mind. So there wasn't much time spent developing him anyway, but how about evil incarnate himself, Darth Sidiuous AKA Senator Palpatine AKA Chancellor Palpatine AKA Emperor Palpatine? That character definitely had depth, the way he single handedly orchestrated the fall of the Jedi from behind the scenes is as compelling as any story going on at TRF.
As for the Ewok example, of course it's not realistic and I won't even reference that using a mystical energy force to move things with your mind isn't either, because it's not the point. Star Wars is a series of movies, and in order to tell the story you have to suspend disbelief to a certain amount. But the result of the movies is realistic, that a force no matter how outnumbered can succeed if they're fighting for what they believe in.
But come on, comparing Wes' hover tanks to AT-ATs? Are you serious? Nothing against Wes, I consider him a good friend and I think he's done a lot for TRF. But that scene on Hoth with the AT-ATs was friggin' amazing. We have tanks in our world, we don't have four-legged behemoths that look like mechanical beasts though, unfortunately.
As for the Imperial aspect, you are somewhat correct in that the Imperials presented weren't depicted as good guys with good ideals. But they weren't supposed to be, why? Because they WERE the bad guys. You're not supposed to think Grand Moff Tarkin's a good guy when he blows up Alderaan right in front of Princess Leia.
As for the bad guys, you bring up a few examples namely Maul and Dooku. Maul, for one was supposed to be mysterious. That was the whole point of Darth Maul. Everything about him is mysterious which just makes him that much cooler when he shows up on the screen with this double-bladed lightsaber that we've never seen before. As for Dooku, he really only played a minor part in my mind. So there wasn't much time spent developing him anyway, but how about evil incarnate himself, Darth Sidiuous AKA Senator Palpatine AKA Chancellor Palpatine AKA Emperor Palpatine? That character definitely had depth, the way he single handedly orchestrated the fall of the Jedi from behind the scenes is as compelling as any story going on at TRF.
As for the Ewok example, of course it's not realistic and I won't even reference that using a mystical energy force to move things with your mind isn't either, because it's not the point. Star Wars is a series of movies, and in order to tell the story you have to suspend disbelief to a certain amount. But the result of the movies is realistic, that a force no matter how outnumbered can succeed if they're fighting for what they believe in.
Of course, you're right in a lot of what you say there.
AT-ATs are much cooler than real world tanks in terms of making an amazing scene, agreed.
All I'm saying is that with our writing we can explore avenues that the films never touched. Even if they had wanted to, they couldn't have developed all the characters properly in the films. Nor could they have made them exciting and realistic*. Here on TRF, we can.
I said earlier that in doing that, we extend Lucas' creation into something "better". I'm not sure that's entirely true now. I accept that was possibly a bad choice of words on my part. I respectfully stand down and concede that you're probably right.
I like the sentiment there. I'm not sure it's always militarily true (whether in our world, the SW world or any other): Small forces, firm in their beliefs and fighting for a cause mostly get wiped out... The Battle of the Alamo? Thermopylae? In fact, I certainly hope it's not true - the Al Qaeda are an outnumbered force who are fighting for what they believe in. I certainly don't want them to suceed ;)
I'll leave that for another thread though!
* By the word "realistic", I mean "realistic within the bounds of the fictional world". For instance, the Force is unrealistic in our world. Within the confines of SW, it's fine. The Ewoks defeating Telan and his chaps, I see as unrealistic even by the rules of SW. Every story (be it a movie, a fiction book or any other) has to be more-or-less consistent (within the bounds of making an entertaining film) by its own rules or else it's impossible to follow. I guess by "realistic" I mean: Would someone call you on it if you wrote it on TRF :P
AT-ATs are much cooler than real world tanks in terms of making an amazing scene, agreed.
All I'm saying is that with our writing we can explore avenues that the films never touched. Even if they had wanted to, they couldn't have developed all the characters properly in the films. Nor could they have made them exciting and realistic*. Here on TRF, we can.
I said earlier that in doing that, we extend Lucas' creation into something "better". I'm not sure that's entirely true now. I accept that was possibly a bad choice of words on my part. I respectfully stand down and concede that you're probably right.
I like the sentiment there. I'm not sure it's always militarily true (whether in our world, the SW world or any other): Small forces, firm in their beliefs and fighting for a cause mostly get wiped out... The Battle of the Alamo? Thermopylae? In fact, I certainly hope it's not true - the Al Qaeda are an outnumbered force who are fighting for what they believe in. I certainly don't want them to suceed ;)
I'll leave that for another thread though!
* By the word "realistic", I mean "realistic within the bounds of the fictional world". For instance, the Force is unrealistic in our world. Within the confines of SW, it's fine. The Ewoks defeating Telan and his chaps, I see as unrealistic even by the rules of SW. Every story (be it a movie, a fiction book or any other) has to be more-or-less consistent (within the bounds of making an entertaining film) by its own rules or else it's impossible to follow. I guess by "realistic" I mean: Would someone call you on it if you wrote it on TRF :P
Ithron, I think you may be the only person on TRF where the following is true. It is a pleasure disagreeing with you. And I knew that would be the case before I even posted, but it's still appreciated.
As for the thing about small forces winning, of course it's not <i>always</i> true. But you can see numerous examples throughout history where it is true, some of which you pointed out yourself.
And when I mentioned the thing about the Ewoks and the force, I specifically meant to NOT use the force as the basis for my opinion. So we agree there. I also agree with you about exploring other avenues, that's the whole point in RPing in my opinion, is that there are so many avenues to explore.
Another good point you bring up is that some of the greatest moments in TRF history, some of the greatest RPs might not make a great movie as the Star Wars series has done. But they definitely make for great stories and fit well into TRF.
As for the thing about small forces winning, of course it's not <i>always</i> true. But you can see numerous examples throughout history where it is true, some of which you pointed out yourself.
And when I mentioned the thing about the Ewoks and the force, I specifically meant to NOT use the force as the basis for my opinion. So we agree there. I also agree with you about exploring other avenues, that's the whole point in RPing in my opinion, is that there are so many avenues to explore.
Another good point you bring up is that some of the greatest moments in TRF history, some of the greatest RPs might not make a great movie as the Star Wars series has done. But they definitely make for great stories and fit well into TRF.
The only thing I hate about Star Wars? Jedi and Sith aren't assigned power levels. I mean, how are you supposed to tell which Master is more powerful then the other Master? This knight over that knight? At what power level does a knight reach master rank? 1,000,000? Also, how much force power do you need to blow up a planet? :D
I disagree as well. I am pleasing to disagree with - ask Dolash!
But yes, the form varies from the functionality when it comes to Star Wars. In Star Wars we see the best and worst of ourselves and in our world(s). We return here, day in and day out, because for a few moments we are allowed to shuffle of the coil of consciousness that binds us to taxes and bills and crime and horror. Inside we are men and women who fight for what we believe in and on the whole, worry about things far different than we would be able to otherwise. For some of us, the characters we play are very close - -all too, sometimes - to the real us; others they are farthest thing we can think of from the reality of which we attempt to escape.
Star Wars itself as a series of movies I will not get into because we all share the same opinions - things like Jar Jar should have been hanged, Acclamator Cruisers should have dropped the rear-hull protrusions to make them more Destroyer-like, etc etc.
Roleplaying here is a mixture of fantasy and reality tied down by the bounds of our imaginations. far too often*glares at certain members* we become embroiled over disputes over what we can do and can't do. It is those arguments which can go from amilable to ten-page deep strings of diatribes insults and lamentations. These arguments drive us away from the goal of roleplaying which is to have fun; somewhere to come after work and forget about the grime; go from a farm worker to a Sith Knight for only a few fleeting moments.
Perhaps what is needed is a Judge of sorts. Someone who is not rping, and can make decisions. Not a staff member, not any sort of vote because votes can be influenced. Someone who can resolve disputes matter of fac tly and finally and give us something to work with. In war, both sides believe their views and tactics and such to be the best, and in battle only time and tactics revel the outcome. Here we can fight each other post after post with "he did this but it was averted by me doing that...". Perhaps instead we need someone to say when the dispute arises: No, the Empire attacks with overwhelming numbers but is beaten back. What then? Ah, that's where the writer shines. The battle is played out by both sides but some one miraculously wins and the litany of loss and success becomes interrupted! The roleplay is now the focus of others, as one side tries to recount its mistakes and the other basks in a hard fought glory. Etc etc. Do you get my point?
Now that I've ranted, I think the above post was amazing - we do hate what Star Wars has become. We are here to insert our own little slice into what we wish it was....
But yes, the form varies from the functionality when it comes to Star Wars. In Star Wars we see the best and worst of ourselves and in our world(s). We return here, day in and day out, because for a few moments we are allowed to shuffle of the coil of consciousness that binds us to taxes and bills and crime and horror. Inside we are men and women who fight for what we believe in and on the whole, worry about things far different than we would be able to otherwise. For some of us, the characters we play are very close - -all too, sometimes - to the real us; others they are farthest thing we can think of from the reality of which we attempt to escape.
Star Wars itself as a series of movies I will not get into because we all share the same opinions - things like Jar Jar should have been hanged, Acclamator Cruisers should have dropped the rear-hull protrusions to make them more Destroyer-like, etc etc.
Roleplaying here is a mixture of fantasy and reality tied down by the bounds of our imaginations. far too often*glares at certain members* we become embroiled over disputes over what we can do and can't do. It is those arguments which can go from amilable to ten-page deep strings of diatribes insults and lamentations. These arguments drive us away from the goal of roleplaying which is to have fun; somewhere to come after work and forget about the grime; go from a farm worker to a Sith Knight for only a few fleeting moments.
Perhaps what is needed is a Judge of sorts. Someone who is not rping, and can make decisions. Not a staff member, not any sort of vote because votes can be influenced. Someone who can resolve disputes matter of fac tly and finally and give us something to work with. In war, both sides believe their views and tactics and such to be the best, and in battle only time and tactics revel the outcome. Here we can fight each other post after post with "he did this but it was averted by me doing that...". Perhaps instead we need someone to say when the dispute arises: No, the Empire attacks with overwhelming numbers but is beaten back. What then? Ah, that's where the writer shines. The battle is played out by both sides but some one miraculously wins and the litany of loss and success becomes interrupted! The roleplay is now the focus of others, as one side tries to recount its mistakes and the other basks in a hard fought glory. Etc etc. Do you get my point?
Now that I've ranted, I think the above post was amazing - we do hate what Star Wars has become. We are here to insert our own little slice into what we wish it was....